Kickstarter issue

Status
Not open for further replies.
H

Hooligan

Joined
Jul 6, 2016
Messages
4
Hello folks, I'm a new member with a problem and pretty sure I can find some help here!
I've got a '72 Combat that I've owned since '78, but it was dry-docked for about 25 years. And no, I didn't do it right. Sold my business about four years ago and my wife said if I was ever going to get that old piece of "junk" running now was the time. She does have some redeeming qualities....!
To get to the problem: Had the engine completely re-built, and it runs great when it runs. The problem is with the kickstarter...about 90% of the time I jump on it it doesn't budge. Not at all. Almost like it was bolted in place. I'm 185# and in pretty good shape; I put everything I've got behind it and it doesn't move, period. Engage the clutch to reset the kicker, follow proper procedure and try again. Sometimes it'll kick through then and start right up, sometimes it's stuck again. Repeat...
Eventually I can get it started, but I'm concerned that there may be a bigger problem that can do damage down the road (other than to my knee!). I put a lot of miles on this bike years ago but never had a problem like this. Your thoughts and/or ideas will be greatly appreciated.
 
What kind of ignition do you have? What is timing set at? Are fuel taps leaking and filling combustion chamber? The more details you can post the more likely to find quick solution.
 
You say the engine has been rebuilt, has the gearbox been touched at all, maybe it just needs to be pulled down and given a good clean out, when sitting for so long it might have had moister get into it , who knows but I would be pulling the cases off the gearbox to check on things inside, its not a big job, they are easy to work on and there is always help if you need it here.

Ashley
 
Hooligan said:
Hello folks, I'm a new member with a problem and pretty sure I can find some help here!
I've got a '72 Combat that I've owned since '78, but it was dry-docked for about 25 years. And no, I didn't do it right. Sold my business about four years ago and my wife said if I was ever going to get that old piece of "junk" running now was the time. She does have some redeeming qualities....!
To get to the problem: Had the engine completely re-built, and it runs great when it runs. The problem is with the kickstarter...about 90% of the time I jump on it it doesn't budge. Not at all. Almost like it was bolted in place. I'm 185# and in pretty good shape; I put everything I've got behind it and it doesn't move, period. Engage the clutch to reset the kicker, follow proper procedure and try again. Sometimes it'll kick through then and start right up, sometimes it's stuck again. Repeat...
Eventually I can get it started, but I'm concerned that there may be a bigger problem that can do damage down the road (other than to my knee!). I put a lot of miles on this bike years ago but never had a problem like this. Your thoughts and/or ideas will be greatly appreciated.
Click to expand...

My 69 bike was like that , kick start was solid my youngest daughter was about nine one day she piped up dad will I call the doctor I was so buggered trying to start it . It seemed as though the Pistons always settled down low.
I had an Alton starter it gave up the ghost.

Then one day ,don't know how it came about but it became easy and a one kick starter. I went through hell trying to start that bike and I could not understand how it looked so easy on utube. Keep at it buddy it will get better.

Cheers ,Jimmy with the big right leg

Ps my gearbox was totally rebuilt and so was the top end new Pistons ,valves etc but the bottom end was untouched.
 
Could be the kickstart pawl or the the 1st gear lay where the pawl is applied are worn. Could also be the kiskshaft itself where the pawl is fastened. They are known to crack in this area.
One thing I am pretty sure of, it will get worse and/or fail altogether.

As Ashman said, the gearbox is fairly quick to master and you can do everything and anything to it with in mounted in the bike.
 
Thanks for the quick responses. You all are on the ball!
Try this in order:
Tri-Spark ignition has been installed.
The gearbox has been re-built, and all gear shifting is smooth and positive. Not dismissing that as the problem...I was even thinking there may be some loose hardware floating around in there.
The fuel taps seem tight, no apparent leaks, and the fact that it fires right up when I can kick through leads me to BELIEVE that there isn't a combustion problem, but maybe....I've got an open mind.
 
Sounds like the gearbox or the primary chain is binding somehow. Does it free up if you nudge it into gear and rock it forward and backwards?
My money is on the gearbox, kicker components either binding or assembled wrong.
 
You should be able to stand on the kickstart lever and the engine should turn over, even after a while, like a few seconds. If it doesn't, something is locked up. I'm about 185# also and sometimes it feels like it won't go over, but it never just stops. Other thing is remove the plugs and see if it does the same. If it's still locked up, something's wrong. No plugs should be easy.
 
I agree with DogT, remove the plugs the next time it locks up and if it still locks up it is likely in the gear box. I would have a look at the pawl mechanism. It pivots on a pin which may have broken and is causing a jam. There is also a plunger and spring that enables the pawl to ratchet. The spring may have distorted, causing the plunger to jam and thus lock the pawl and the kickstart mechanism. The pawl locks into teeth inside the layshaft first gear and if the pawl is jamming inside this area, the kickstart will lock up. I think you will need to take the gearbox covers off and investigate this area first.
 
Got to say in my naivety when mine was like that I thought it was normal. It also wet sumped very badly but when it became easy ,without the solidity of the kickstart it now can sit for months and can start first kick with little oil lost from the tank.

mschmitz57 said:
Sounds like the gearbox or the primary chain is binding somehow. Does it free up if you nudge it into gear and rock it forward and backwards?
My money is on the gearbox, kicker components either binding or assembled wrong.
Click to expand...

You've built a box mark it's hardly a Rubix cube and his works and kicks over ,the primary is connected to the crank ,maybe it's the position of the crank when it comes to rest ,easy to check if that is the case pull a plug and see where the Pistons are.

I have changed a good few tractor starter ring gears to know that engines like to come to rest at the same position or 180 deg to that.

pete.v said:
Could be the kickstart pawl or the the 1st gear lay where the pawl is applied are worn. Could also be the kiskshaft itself where the pawl is fastened. They are known to crack in this area.
One thing I am pretty sure of, it will get worse and/or fail altogether.

As Ashman said, the gearbox is fairly quick to master and you can do everything and anything to it with in mounted in the bike.
Click to expand...

If the Paul was worn you would feel it, mine was new , bought it from mick Hemings and the box is still working fine ,did 130 mile the other day. So mine did get better .

Well that's my two quids worth , hope things work out for you hooligan maybe les will have the answer!

this page was inspired by Elastoplast, jimmy
 
Hooligan said:
The problem is with the kickstarter...about 90% of the time I jump on it it doesn't budge. Not at all. Almost like it was bolted in place. I'm 185# and in pretty good shape; I put everything I've got behind it and it doesn't move, period.
Click to expand...

This can often be nothing more than cylinder compression which does make it feel as if the kickstart mechanism is locked solid if the lever is just kicked at random.
I suggest you try modifying your kickstarting technique by using the kickstart lever to slowly 'bump' the cylinder just over compression each time, allow the lever to return and then give it a full-blooded kick.
 
DogT said:
You should be able to stand on the kickstart lever and the engine should turn over, even after a while, like a few seconds. If it doesn't, something is locked up. I'm about 185# also and sometimes it feels like it won't go over, but it never just stops. Other thing is remove the plugs and see if it does the same. If it's still locked up, something's wrong. No plugs should be easy.
Click to expand...

OK since this test is the simplest suggested it was the first effort. Yes, when I stand on the "stuck" kicker it does gradually cycle through. It won't move when I kick through, but with just body weight applied it will, after a few seconds, drift down and "release" in about the 8 to 6 position. I can hear compression and fuel (gurgling) sounds. What's this telling me?
 
Hooligan said:
DogT said:
You should be able to stand on the kickstart lever and the engine should turn over, even after a while, like a few seconds. If it doesn't, something is locked up. I'm about 185# also and sometimes it feels like it won't go over, but it never just stops. Other thing is remove the plugs and see if it does the same. If it's still locked up, something's wrong. No plugs should be easy.
Click to expand...

OK since this test is the simplest suggested it was the first effort. Yes, when I stand on the "stuck" kicker it does gradually cycle through. It won't move when I kick through, but with just body weight applied it will, after a few seconds, drift down and "release" in about the 8 to 6 position. I can hear compression and fuel (gurgling) sounds. What's this telling me?
Click to expand...

It's telling you everything is probably as it should be, and that the apparent "lock-up" you are experiencing is cylinder compression.
 
Hooligan said:
DogT said:
You should be able to stand on the kickstart lever and the engine should turn over, even after a while, like a few seconds. If it doesn't, something is locked up. I'm about 185# also and sometimes it feels like it won't go over, but it never just stops. Other thing is remove the plugs and see if it does the same. If it's still locked up, something's wrong. No plugs should be easy.
Click to expand...

OK since this test is the simplest suggested it was the first effort. Yes, when I stand on the "stuck" kicker it does gradually cycle through. It won't move when I kick through, but with just body weight applied it will, after a few seconds, drift down and "release" in about the 8 to 6 position. I can hear compression and fuel (gurgling) sounds. What's this telling me?
Click to expand...
Check your oil tank level. Sounds like you might have a serious case of wet sumping. An oil filled engine sump compounds the effects of cylinder compression. Good luck.
 
this is good news hooligan .... the more you ride , the better it will get .... DogT is right kicking over a couple of liters of oil is very hard work even when you are young and in good shape .... check and see how much oil is in sump and address that if you have too much .... it will make things a lot easier ... then it's only compression , a good thing
Craig
 
If you pull the clutch in does it cycle correctly, if so probably not gearbox, try starting with leaver more horizontal than straight up and down
 
Thanks for all the input. At this point, checking the suggestions that didn't require opening the patient, I'm pretty satisfied that it's compression. Much more than I remember from years ago, but that makes sense with a freshly overhauled engine, right? Pretty sure I won't be doing any damage by riding, which was my foremost concern. Started it a few times today using a bit different procedure (letting the pistons "drift" rather then trying to muscle them) and it worked great! My thanks to you all.
If there are other issues you think a guy getting back into Nortons ought to be aware of, I'm all ears. I don't have much to offer the forum in terms of input at this point unless someone needs help with welding issues. With that, I just might earn my keep...
Hooligan
 
LAB gave you some really good information. When you are ready to start the bike, push the lever over until you feel the pistons go over compression, you will know when it happens. Then release the lever and bring it back up and give it both barrels. I haven't got enough strength in my leg muscles to push it over, I have to get up on both riding pegs and use my weight to carry the kickstart lever through the next compression which is nearly down at the bottom, it will usually start at that point if it's been tickled properly. Wet sumping will make the procedure harder because you're pushing a bunch of oil through. Using a good synthetic oil like 20W50 V-Twin will make it easier, but it will also wet sump faster. You can break yourself in with SAE50 and then go to V-Twin and it will feel like magic.

Sounds like you have no trans problem.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

D
Kickstart Issues
2 3
Replies
47
Views
4,322
Tornado
Tornado
B
RGM Kickstart Lever
2
Replies
20
Views
1,358
marshg246
marshg246
R
Kickstart Splines Tight
Replies
6
Views
574
MichaelB
MichaelB
Tornado
Went to War with Kickstart Clamp....
Replies
19
Views
803
baz
baz
jms
Norton Atlas Kickstarter with Rear Sets
Replies
5
Views
761
jms
jms
Back
Top