Just how "not good" is this?

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I do not reckon that is not too bad, these engines are always wearing.

I'd be glad there isn't chunks, particularly bearing chunks.

Do a couple of quick oil changes, then see what happens, perhaps, get the engine hot, go for an hours ride, change the oil and do again.

I change my oil every 1,000 miles, oil is cheap, engine rebuild cost you down time................
 
I saw dynodave demo his oil pump test rig at the INOA rally. I'd send my pump to him if not a brand new one. He can test leakage and also output. Sometimes the output can fall off under load. This is not something to wonder about.
 
Napanorton, I'll be interested to know what you find. I'm into a motor strip for the same reason and my camshaft, followers and cam bushes are kaputt, plus the valve stem tips and tappet adjusters are worn & pitted. The rest seems OK but having gone this far I'm doing the mains & big end shells as well. God's teeth, but these parts are expensive - with taxes I'm already over UK£1000! I'll take & post some photos later.
 
The magnet collection ain't really that extensive nor is the oil pump teeth, not good signs, just not excessive enough to be detectable in function to lube engine life, even if don't get top grades in dynodave's tests. My guess is ring/bore flakes most, some bearing/race, then cam/lifter dust. My 1st Combat pre-Peel oil pump swallowed and digested the thrust washer tab which knocked a distinct groove in 3 teeth and scored the back plate, but still pumped enough oil the big leaks were the main reason I decided to dive in and learn them. The Al that is missed by the pump is usually quite oxidized by engine heat and oil combustion moisture, so they are more like hardened sapphire grinding paste than softened annealed detempered steel slivers. The big stuff you can see with your eyes can't get into the engine wear surfaces, just the oil pump cogs and sludge deposits that stay put until you get to them with some effort to clean. New oil pump cost about $80-90 IIRC. In for a penny down for pounds and pounds, should be motto stamped in motorcycles along with their serial numbers.
 
Here's where the bits of metal on my sump plug came from. Just hope it's not going to happen again......... On Mick Hemmings' recommendation I'm going to fit a PW3 camshaft, it will be interesting to see how it works out.

Just how "not good" is this?
Just how "not good" is this?
 
David (NAPANORTON)

Where were you last Sunday when I lead an NCNOC ride through Napa. Left from Starbucks in American Canyon at 10:00am, went to Middletown for lunch and back on Hwy 29 to Silverado Trail.
 
mitchp said:
Here's where the bits of metal on my sump plug came from. Just hope it's not going to happen again......... On Mick Hemmings' recommendation I'm going to fit a PW3 camshaft, it will be interesting to see how it works out.

Just how "not good" is this?
[/quote]

What is the differance between a PW3 cam and whats in the picture?.
Click to expand...
 
hobot said:
New oil pump cost about $80-90 IIRC...
Click to expand...

I'll take a dozen of them at that price, then I'll be in for about 100 more as soon as I re-sell those for several hundred each.
 
Does Dynodave just test them or does he repair them too? Mine wetsumps in 2 days, but I seem to have plenty of pressure, I guess, by looking at the return.

Dave
69S
 
Dave is sometimes on this forum so he can answer directly. From what he told me there are IIRC 4 possible paths for the oil to pass thru causing wet-sumping. The Norton manual fix only addresses one of these paths - the clearance between the gears and the pump body.

I have a late ~M~ G80CS using basically the same style pump and someone pointed me to this article which I found very helpful for a problem I was having. It gives some history and also talks about leakage paths. It is mostly right....

http://www.centralcoastclassicmc.com/NortonOilPumps.htm

Don't mean to hijack the thread. I still need to git me one of them magnetic plugs for my combat. Didn't like seeing that fuzzball. Has a later type filter been added? (Sorry Hobot - I know this is one of your hot buttons.)
 
john robert bould said:
What is the differance between a PW3 cam and whats in the picture?.
Click to expand...

Fitted by the previous owner, I believe the cam in the picture to be a standard Andover Norton camshaft. It is marked "AN" and has probably done 6000 miles max.

My knowledge of this is pretty limited, but I understand PW3 camshaft was developed by Peter Williams for use in the Norton production racers in the 1970's and is made from chilled cast iron, supposedly a better material for camshafts than the standard steel. Has higher lift and duration than standard and is claimed to boost midrange power.

Mitch
 
mitchp said:
john robert bould said:
What is the differance between a PW3 cam and whats in the picture?.
Click to expand...

Fitted by the previous owner, I believe the cam in the picture to be a standard Andover Norton camshaft. It is marked "AN" and has probably done 6000 miles max.

My knowledge of this is pretty limited, but I understand PW3 camshaft was developed by Peter Williams for use in the Norton production racers in the 1970's and is made from chilled cast iron, supposedly a better material for camshafts than the standard steel. Has higher lift and duration than standard and is claimed to boost midrange power.

Mitch
Click to expand...

It might be worth comparing the cost of the new cam and lifters with the BSA kit and reground cam from
http://www.jsmotorsport.com/technical_CamLifters.asp
 
Cheesy said:
It might be worth comparing the cost of the new cam and lifters with the BSA kit and reground cam from
http://www.jsmotorsport.com/technical_CamLifters.asp
Click to expand...

Cheesy, I don't know whether to thank you or cry. The JS lifters look to be a much better design than stock and if the quality is as good as it looks, the kit may well be worth the extra. Transatlantic shipping costs may be the deciding factor. Anyone on here with direct experience of JS Motorsport products?

Mitch
 
mitchp said:
Cheesy said:
It might be worth comparing the cost of the new cam and lifters with the BSA kit and reground cam from
http://www.jsmotorsport.com/technical_CamLifters.asp
Click to expand...

Cheesy, I don't know whether to thank you or cry. The JS lifters look to be a much better design than stock and if the quality is as good as it looks, the kit may well be worth the extra. Transatlantic shipping costs may be the deciding factor. Anyone on here with direct experience of JS Motorsport products?

Mitch
Click to expand...

I bought a set of carbs from JS and unlike mickeysoft windoze, they were plug and play. I get e-mails from him when there are proposed changes for better operation. For example he sent a mail letting me know I could change the pilot jet for better idling.

If I had more money, I would have fitted the lifter block and lifters and a set of his lightweight pistons.

Jean
 
Didn't turn out to be the cam or followers - they look great, so it's a bit of a mystery. I don't see anything that really looks amiss.

illf8ed - I was in SF, but I had no idea you were leading a ride. I've been reluctant to join the No. Cal chapter as I just don't get down to skyline or HMB much. Need more north bay rides. I guess I should look at the calendar more. Thanks for the heads up.

-- David
 
Scape the very bottom inside of the oil tank with a magnet and see what you get.
Often after years of neglect by PO's there will be an accumulation of debris that has settled out.
Then with the use of new oils containing better detergents and running long enough to get things hot there will be some dissolving and redistribution of the oil tank sludge. It's one possibility having found no other immediately definite contributor.
The babbit overlay on the kelmet inserts is soft and subsequently wiped away by the abrasive nature of the oil borne particles. This indicates dirty and possibly contaminated oil over a period of time. The engine oil must reach operating temperature to volitalise the byproducts of combustion that invade the crankcase or contamination will result. Short runs are hard on oil and engines. Is the crankcase breather working (do they ever) ?
The copper backing below the babbit is nowhere near as forgiving and damage to the crank with occur if not corrected. You should check for and correct any out of roundness of the journals. How are the ring end gaps? Ridges in the top of the bores? Scuffing scores on the skirts?
You took the correct course of action with the dismantling. Flush all the oil passages judiciously prior to assembly. It's likely that anywhere the oil flow can slow down and pool will be a little reservoir of what is on the sump magnet. Examine your oil pump too.

All the best.
 
napanorton said:
Didn't turn out to be the cam or followers - they look great, so it's a bit of a mystery. I don't see anything that really looks amiss.

illf8ed - I was in SF, but I had no idea you were leading a ride. I've been reluctant to join the No. Cal chapter as I just don't get down to skyline or HMB much. Need more north bay rides. I guess I should look at the calendar more. Thanks for the heads up.

-- David
Click to expand...

Cam followers look to be old Dominator steel type. There should be stellite tips brazed onto the ends on later cam followers. As long as you have not worn down the hardness, they can be reground on a surface grinder for a smooth finish.
Check that you have a six start worm on oil pump, this doubles the oil flow.
 
The oil tank was replaced a while ago (maybe 6 yrs) when the old one developed the infamous crack at the bottom mount. Since then, I've been pretty good about changing the oil and filter. I will take it out and flush it and all the lines however. As for the piston skirts - they look almost perfect - I did new pistons when I did the head about 2K miles ago. The piston bores look OK too. One thing mentioned was getting the oil hot enough to volitalize the combustion byproducts - that probably didn't happen too much. This bike gets a lot of shortish trips and probably doesn't like it. The crankcase breather was changed out to be Motomite one - it seems to work as I don't have any leaks (at least from the crankcase). I will be replacing the oil pump with a better used one I have.

Thanks for the input. It's looking more and more like I'll probably just replace the bearings and put it back together.

I'm working on it in this thread - http://www.accessnorton.com/the-teardown-t10927.html

-- David
 
napanorton said:
The oil tank was replaced a while ago (maybe 6 yrs) when the old one developed the infamous crack at the bottom mount.'

All this on mag plug could have all come from the bottom of the replacement oil tank if it was not cleaned out & fulshed out !!
Click to expand...
 
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