Is this excessive wet sumping?

I have been waiting but no-one has mentioned...
You don't say if you drained from the small front plug or the large rear one. A different amount will come out of each - more from the front.
Also, the sump (despite the name) does not run dry.
If I pull the small plug from mine (850 Mk2A - on the centre-stand) immediately after riding (gloves needed!) then 160ml of oil comes out, so the amount you "sump" is the amount drained minus 160ml.
Cheers

For the record, I will never put an in-line valve on my bikes. It's too easy to drain the sump and pour into the tank after a layoff. Also tells you something about your engine. If you have to do it often - buy one of the large plugs with the small magnetic plugs incorporated - save the threads in your crankcase.

It's a 72, so no large sump plugs only the small one.

My Combat Commando wet sumped badly, so I fitted a new oil pump and also a new MK3 timing cover.

After these mods, the the bike doesnt wet sump at all, even after months of standing.

As previously mentioned, the in-line tap and microswitch are also worth considering. I use these on my A65 and B44, and they work well. Being wired in with the ignition circuit means the engine can't be started unless the tap is open, It is essential to remember to close the tap after riding to stop oil draining.

gunnag said:

My Combat Commando wet sumped badly, so I fitted a new oil pump and also a new MK3 timing cover.

After these mods, the the bike doesnt wet sump at all, even after months of standing.

As previously mentioned, the in-line tap and microswitch are also worth considering. I use these on my A65 and B44, and they work well. Being wired in with the ignition circuit means the engine can't be started unless the tap is open, It is essential to remember to close the tap after riding to stop oil draining.

Click to expand...

My b50 engine would wet sump pretty badly
It turned out to be the wrong length screw retaining the anti wet sump spring/ball bearing in the inner timing cover not compression the spring enough
This made it better
Then I changed the ball bearing from 1/4" to 6mm so it'd sit in a slightly different position on the seat
And this pretty much stopped any wet sumping
Well you could leave it for 3 months with no noticeable drop in the oil tank

marshg246 said:

Has anyone ever actually measured the oil in the sump with the feed blocked or removed after letting it sit for a day after running? The sump will have some oil, the oil in the head will drain down, the oil in the timing chest will drain down, the oil in the rocker fee will drain down, and if the crank is in the right position it's oil will drain as well. I'm wondering how much all that amounts to. I guess another way to ask would be how much in an AMR or MK3 timing cover equipped engine after running and then sitting for 24 hours with the crank journal holes vertical.

Click to expand...

Greg,
About 7oz. is what I have measured before after shutting off the feed line after riding and letting it sit.Others may have different results.
Mike

robs ss said:

I have been waiting but no-one has mentioned...
You don't say if you drained from the small front plug or the large rear one. A different amount will come out of each - more from the front.
Also, the sump (despite the name) does not run dry.
If I pull the small plug from mine (850 Mk2A - on the centre-stand) immediately after riding (gloves needed!) then 160ml of oil comes out, so the amount you "sump" is the amount drained minus 160ml.
Cheers

For the record, I will never put an in-line valve on my bikes. It's too easy to drain the sump and pour into the tank after a layoff. Also tells you something about your engine. If you have to do it often - buy one of the large plugs with the small magnetic plugs incorporated - save the threads in your crankcase.

Click to expand...

The sump was drained prior to checking how much leaked through the pump in the 24 hour period.

I agree, I do not want to install a check valve or an interlock valve in the suction line, perhaps just for cosmetic reasons, the devices in the line look tacky. If that is my only option, I'd choose the interlock valve, I don't trust a check valve.

The thing that might kill your bike slowly is poor oiling from very low oil pressure. When your bike wet sumps quickly, that can be a symptom of a worn out oil pump. As was said, there's a procedure to hone the parts of your oil pump to tighten up it's tolerances and that increases the resulting oil pressure. I did it 20 something years ago.

I never bother to drain the sump. It gives a good splash of oil on the cylinder walls and the camshaft when I kick it over if it's sumped. The only possible issue with sumping is the drive side crankcase seal being dislodged from pressure. I have 2 reed breathers on my crankcase, so that's not going to be a problem for me.... and if you use a reed valve on your crankcase, you shouldn't have a problem either.

I have no oil pressure gauge and no AMR modification. I just look in the oil tank filler cap opening and see the oil shooting out of the return line inside the tank..... so I know there's good oil pressure. I've had this bike for 48 years with the same oil pump..... Using good quality oil and changing it frequently is important for the long life of your metal to metal parts and especially important in pushrod engines with solid lifters...... like a commando.

o0norton0o said:

The thing that might kill your bike slowly is poor oiling from very low oil pressure. When your bike wet sumps quickly, that can be a symptom of a worn out oil pump. As was said, there's a procedure to hone the parts of your oil pump to tighten up it's tolerances and that increases the resulting oil pressure. I did it 20 something years ago.

Click to expand...

I don't have a lot of experience with gear drive oil pumps on motorcycles. The experience I have with them is in the petro-chemical industry. I learned a wore out gear pump should be replaced. You can replace the gears and make some improvement but the case also wears. Keep in mind those pumps I worked on for years where used for pumping crude oil, which contains sediment (dirt & sand) & water.

A reliable source (old timer) told me rebuilt & new pumps will still wet sump, probably just as much. He believes in the anti-sump check valve.

I do agree with you about watching the return oil stream to the tank is a good indication the pump is operating properly.

Thanks for all the replies.

I am in the same boat as o0norton0o 48+ years of ownership, original oil pump, oil pump has never been touched, has never been honed and after any engine pull down I fill the oil pump with oil and turn it to hear the sucking of the oil coming out of it while pumping a little bit more oil in it, my oil pump has well over 160k miles on it and I prime the oil line before I start my motor after work on the engine.
I don't run an oil pressure gauge or oil light, nothing, and very rare I look in the tank too see if oil is returning to the tank as I know it always does and when I do look always a good flow, usually after an oil change I will check flow in the tank.
I use to run good straight 50 Pennizoil most of it life when I brought it straight from an importer, but the Pennizoil we get here now is made in Aus and not the same as it use to be so now run Penrite Classic oil but I have always put in a mixture of STP with my oil since 1982 and think that is one of the reasons I have got long life and high mileage out of my motor and running an oil cooler all year round and of course regular oil changes when needed, I mix the STP with my oil before I put it in the oil tank.
My motor will only wet sump over a 4 month break (3 left knee injuries) and if it sat that long the idea of oil in the sump is good for the cam and lifters just drain the oil out before starting as well when I installed a new crank seal I put a little JB weld on the outside edge of the seal so the seal wouldn't pop out if it did have access oil in the sump when starting, but I always check the oil level in the oil tank before any ride.
My Norton was always an everyday rider till 2013 when I brought my new Thruxton and didn't have any problems at all with wet sumping but now its semi-retired and not ridden all the time as it use too so now always make sure the oil in the tank is up on level or near enough before starting.
Some might say running STP in my oil is snake oil, but been running it since 1982 and still running std size slipper bearings on my conrods and only one over size rebore after a hard first few years of flogging my motor with burn outs and just being young/silly and a hoon, the rebore was done in 1982 when I did the Featherbed conversion at very tight tolerance from final bore to hone and is still strong to this day and maybe why I also had long life out of my oil pump without touching it, my motor has only been fully pulled down twice in the 48+ years of ownership, last pull down was 20 years ago to replace the crank cases, hair line cracks around the main oil seal (caused from my younger days of flogging my motor) and a broken middle stud mount hole of the crank case (the broken piece was rolling around on top of the crank at idle and flowed in between the cylinders walls when riding, so only rattled when idling), when I finally pulled the motor down that broken piece was a highly polish bit of broken crank case, I still have that piece somewhere in my bits in the shed.

Ashley

Tell me about STP added to your oil.
What is the ratio?
What have you seen as the benefit over the miles?
Dennis

10drum said:

A reliable source (old timer) told me rebuilt & new pumps will still wet sump, probably just as much. He believes in the anti-sump check valve.

I do agree with you about watching the return oil stream to the tank is a good indication the pump is operating properly.

Thanks for all the replies.

Click to expand...

I say your old timer friend has been lucky if he has used an anti-sump check valve in the oil line as many stories of failed anti-sump check valves and destroyed engines, but a lot have done the AMR modification, some with success and others just slowing down the flow and time it take to fill the crank, best thing to do is ride the bike regularly without it sitting too long.

Ashley

DennisMo said:

Tell me about STP added to your oil.
What is the ratio?
What have you seen as the benefit over the miles?
Dennis

Click to expand...

My oil tank is an alloy round tank and is only 3ltr tank, so 2ltr of oil and 500ml of STP ratio mixed in the oil before filling the oil tank as well what's in the oil cooler lines.
As for benefits, long life out of slipper conrod bearings and cylinder bores and other main bearings, my Norton has well over 160k miles and 20 years ago was the last pull down to replace the crank cases so all new bearings, the main bearing were still good but was replace the conrod slipper bearings were replace with standard size slippers, the 40thu rebore was still good so just replace the rings and a light hone, the rebore was done in 1982, from 1980 to 82 was when I built the 850 Commando/Featherbed conversion, my cam was built up and grind to 2S cam profile, running 40thu flat top Hepolite pistons and the crank balanced for the Featherbed frame and my cam lifters were reground on a surface grinder, to this day I am still running this cam and lifters so to me the STP has proven itself for less wear and tear of my motor, I might not flog my motor like I use too in my youth but I still ride my Norton hard I don't pussy it, I have always been an aggressive rider on all my bikes.
I also use a 50/50 mixture of motor oil and STP on all parts when assembling motors, I have rebuild few Norton motors for friends over the years and 2 from word of mouth and the ones who still own the bikes have had no problems, but not sure if they took my advice in running with STP.
So whether my Norton is a freak of a bike or the STP has done what it supposed to do, but to me it has proven itself and that's all that counts.

Ashley

10drum said:

I do agree with you about watching the return oil stream to the tank is a good indication the pump is operating properly.

Click to expand...

You got the main point.... Your oil pump makes your oil flow (duh). You don't NEED an oil pressure gauge (but they are nice) You don't need to measure oil amounts in your sump and divide by the number of hours your bike is sitting to come up with a rate of sump/hours ratio to know when your oil pump is toast.... One look into the oil tank when you start it up tells you all you need to know... It pisses oil until the sump is empty and then it spurts.

marshg246 said:

If you really mean "immediately", then there is a good bit more in the engine that is not yet in the sump so 160ml is approx. the running sump amount for your engine. What's more interesting for this discussion is how much is there before it has time to leak through the oil feed (e.g., after an hour, after 24 hours).

Click to expand...

Thanks Greg - good point.
12 hours later another 60ml came out - so 220ml total minus whatever mine is sumping (not much).
That brings the OP's sumping problem down from 470ml to 250ml. Not great but not as bad as first impressions give.
Not surprisingly the rate of sumping reduces as the level in the oil tank lowers and the viscosity raises (cooler oil)
Still no reason for a potentially disastrous valve!
Cheers

ashman said:

I say your old timer friend has been lucky if he has used an anti-sump check valve in the oil line as many stories of failed anti-sump check valves and destroyed engines, but a lot have done the AMR modification, some with success and others just slowing down the flow and time it take to fill the crank, best thing to do is ride the bike regularly without it sitting too long.

Ashley

Click to expand...

The old-timer has been in business since 1962. He's been a franchise dealer of Triumph, BSA, Norton, Yamaha, Honda, and Ducati. He sells an anti-sump check valve for Nortons and BSAs. I asked him if there is anything I can do to the oil pump to help reduce wet sumping. He said no, and he didn't mention anything about a reed valve crankcase vent. However long he's been selling the check valve I would think if there were any issues he would not promote it, since most likely he would've been forced to repair the results of those issues.

That being said, I'm am still against installing any restriction in the suction line to the oil pump, plus I think they look tacky.

10drum said:

The old-timer has been in business since 1962. He's been a franchise dealer of Triumph, BSA, Norton, Yamaha, Honda, and Ducati. He sells an anti-sump check valve for Nortons and BSAs. I asked him if there is anything I can do to the oil pump to help reduce wet sumping. He said no, and he didn't mention anything about a reed valve crankcase vent. However long he's been selling the check valve I would think if there were any issues he would not promote it, since most likely he would've been forced to repair the results of those issues.

That being said, I'm am still against installing any restriction in the suction line to the oil pump, plus I think they look tacky.

Click to expand...

If he said" there is nothing you can do to reduce wet sumping on a Norton oil pump " he is just plain wrong
And I would not use his services end of !

o0norton0o said:

You don't need to measure oil amounts in your sump and divide by the number of hours your bike is sitting to come up with a rate of sump/hours ratio to know when your oil pump is toast....

Click to expand...

The bike was on my table to replace the crankshaft seal, I thought I had a seal, but had to order one, so while the the seal was out I pulled the drain plug to keep oil outa the crankcase. I was curious how much leaked in one day, it was more than I thought, plus it's given us something to discuss. I already knew the oil pump was not toast.

I stopped by cNw about 5 years ago on one my trips to the Rockies (my pre-Norton days). I really liked his cNw instrument console. Matt told me many people had asked why he didn't install an oil pressure gage. He said you know instantly when you lose oil psi, volts/battery condition is more important to monitor. I agree.

10drum said:

The old-timer has been in business since 1962. He's been a franchise dealer of Triumph, BSA, Norton, Yamaha, Honda, and Ducati. He sells an anti-sump check valve for Nortons and BSAs. I asked him if there is anything I can do to the oil pump to help reduce wet sumping. He said no, and he didn't mention anything about a reed valve crankcase vent. However long he's been selling the check valve I would think if there were any issues he would not promote it, since most likely he would've been forced to repair the results of those issues.

That being said, I'm am still against installing any restriction in the suction line to the oil pump, plus I think they look tacky.

Click to expand...

In the early days reed valves weren't even thought about, but who ever thought about it at the time was a great idea, I never had problems with oil leaks with my Norton but about 20 years ago I fitted a XS650 yammy reed valve to my breather line, $25 new, having felt the breather blowing and sucking pressure from the breather while the motor was running the one way reed valve was a good idea.
As for selling anti sump valves don't stop people from selling them as they are still being sold, but people put things on bikes at their own risk in between their oil tank and motor and there have been members on this site who made that mistake at big cost to them.
But some bikes wet sump quicker than others, one of my mates back in the 70s had a 750 Commando that emptied the oil tank over night, it was so bad, but it was a well worn and flogged out Norton at the time he brought it, he didn't pay much for it and didn't keep it long enough to fix it (young and silly and too many drugs, pot), it had the breather hose to the back of the bike.

Ashley

10drum said:

The bike was on my table to replace the crankshaft seal, I thought I had a seal, but had to order one, so while the the seal was out I pulled the drain plug to keep oil outa the crankcase. I was curious how much leaked in one day, it was more than I thought, plus it's given us something to discuss. I already knew the oil pump was not toast.

I stopped by cNw about 5 years ago on one my trips to the Rockies (my pre-Norton days). I really liked his cNw instrument console. Matt told me many people had asked why he didn't install an oil pressure gage. He said you know instantly when you lose oil psi, volts/battery condition is more important to monitor. I agree.

Click to expand...

Other than expensive damage , how would you know if you lost oil pressure. An oil pressure gauge does many things and it's a handy tool and would have saved many poorly assembled engines, low pressure due to defective Oil pressure seals , as well as low output due to worn or damaged parts. One time on a brisk ride to Cape Cod, on a first year Commando with a custom oil tank , one of the oil hoses slipped off. the only reason we knew it wasn't the old Indian chopper was he was the one getting oil on his face. We stopped in the break down lane and Luckily the kid on the Commando figured it out and he pulled into a nearby gas station and repaired the hose and added oil. PS You can monitor voltage by reving the bike and see if the headlight brightens. or if the horn sounds OK. On customers bike I always hooked up a tempory gauge to see what the heck was going on, you never know until you see where the needle swings. On my race bikes, I'm sure the riders felt better about seeing oil pressure as they were risking life and limb running the bikes real hard.

10drum said:

I asked him if there is anything I can do to the oil pump to help reduce wet sumping. He said no, and he didn't mention anything about a reed valve crankcase vent.

Click to expand...

Of course there is. You can replace the oil pump by a new one end experience the benefits of CNC manufacturing. This will reduce wet sumping to a very low figure. For complete peace of mind, have AMR modify a brand new pump and install their check valve in the timing cover.

Even though your oil pump isn't "toast", oil pumps do wear. Wear to the housing and the gear wheels inside can't be reversed unfortunately.

- Knut