Is this excessive wet sumping?

10drum

10drum

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Greetings,

I have my 72 interstate on the table to change the cranlkshaft seal.

While waiting for the new seal I pulled the crankcase drain plug to see how much drained out in 24 hours, it was over 16 oz.

This seems excessive to me, is it? I'm a Triumph guy, I picked up the Norton because of electric start options, so wet sumping is somewhat new to me.

I know some install anti-sump check valves in the suction line to the engine. I have mixed opinions on those. I have considered using a valve equipped with an ignition interlock switch. IDK? Perhaps I need to investigate the oil pump???

No doubt this topic has been discussed many times, but thought I'd ask anyway while waiting on parts.

Thanks for all replies.

Phil
 
Do not install an anti-sump valve, refurbish the pump to close up the loose clearances, if that does not slow down enough then fit a reed valve in the breather pipe so the oil has a route out and send your timing cover etc out to AMR. Their anti sump valve is after the pump not before, so does not have the same issues as the anti sumping valves before the pump.
 
10drum said:
Greetings,

I have my 72 interstate on the table to change the cranlkshaft seal.

While waiting for the new seal I pulled the crankcase drain plug to see how much drained out in 24 hours, it was over 16 oz.

This seems excessive to me, is it? I'm a Triumph guy, I picked up the Norton because of electric start options, so wet sumping is somewhat new to me.

I know some install anti-sump check valves in the suction line to the engine. I have mixed opinions on those. I have considered using a valve equipped with an ignition interlock switch. IDK? Perhaps I need to investigate the oil pump???

No doubt this topic has been discussed many times, but thought I'd ask anyway while waiting on parts.

Thanks for all replies.

Phil
Click to expand...
The amount of oil is very excessive and as stated above refurbish the pump
Do a search on here about how to go about it because some people go a bit further than just lapping in the pump end plate
Do you know anything of the bikes history?
Is the mileage high?
Maybe the pump has never been touched or even loose etc
 
16 oz, 24 hrs. Way too much.
Indicates issues. Any anti sump measures will only mask the problem.
Properly set up, no more than a few drops in 24 hrs.
Guessing the pump to outer case seal is bad or worse, missing.
With either of the above, you are not getting proper oil pressure.
Tear down and inspect, replace with proper seal.
Service pump while in there. Probably replace the points seal while in there.
Use the proper tapered tool for reinstall of outer case over points seal.


Or tear down and send the whole boodle to AMR for the fix.
 
baz said:
The amount of oil is very excessive and as stated above refurbish the pump
Do a search on here about how to go about it because some people go a bit further than just lapping in the pump end plate
Do you know anything of the bikes history?
Is the mileage high?
Maybe the pump has never been touched or even loose etc
Click to expand...
I thought it was excessive.
Oh boy!! I get to pull timing side cover.
The history? I know a little. The bike has 33K miles on it. I know at least the head has been repaired in the past, and the way it runs, compression, the plugs, and exhaust indicate good rings and valve guides, so I assume it's been re-built at least once. Everything else on the bike was wore out when I got it, except maybe the wheel bearings, they were fine, I've replaced &/or repaired just about everything else. this will be the my first venture into the engine.
 
HI Phil:

Based on a recommendation from a fellow forum member, (wish I could remember who it was, sorry). I have been using an "oil tap with cutout switch" from Kingpin Components to prevent wet sumping: https://www.kingpincomponents.co.uk/product-page/oil-tap-with-cutout-switch

Absolutely brilliant piece of kit! I have fitted one to each of my three current bikes, (two Nortons and an AJS). All three wet sumped, (including my 650SS with a brand new replacement oil pump that supposedly would prevent wet sumping - it did not). I have not had good experiences with anti-wet sump valves and personally would never install another one. The Kingpin components "oil tap with cutout switch" is more compact / less obtrusive than other taps I have seen, is easy to install and works flawlessly, (perfect example of "Keep it simple Stupid", (KISS)). To me at least, this is the best solution. Please see picture of my Commando installed tap below.
 

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marshg246 said:
Has anyone ever actually measured the oil in the sump with the feed blocked or removed after letting it sit for a day after running? The sump will have some oil, the oil in the head will drain down, the oil in the timing chest will drain down, the oil in the rocker fee will drain down, and if the crank is in the right position it's oil will drain as well. I'm wondering how much all that amounts to. I guess another way to ask would be how much in an AMR or MK3 timing cover equipped engine after running and then sitting for 24 hours with the crank journal holes vertical.
Click to expand...
I measured the oil in my mk3's sump 1 hour after riding. It was 400cc (13.5 oz).

My mk3 has c.900cc after a fortnight standing. So, 250 cc/week. I was checking because I had removed the automatic ball/spring anti-sumping valve the bike came to me with. As I could see me leaving the bike for a fortnight between rides, I bought the revised sump screen filter, which has an integral sump plug, so you can empty the sump regularly without wearing the threads in the case: https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/shop-details-2/16995/magnetic-crankcase-sump-filter-kit

I also bought a manual oil valve with the ignition cut off switch, like @10drum mentioned. I haven't fitted this, simply because I'm happy emptying the sump. But I see no harm in them, if you prefer not to have to empty it out. I am happy I took out the automatic ball and spring valve though. There's an interesting (and I thought, quite shocking) video on YouTube, showing a mocked up motorcycle oil pump system. It is worrying how long it takes this type of valve to open and how they restrict oil flow.

If you are concerned about the working performance of your oil pump, measure it. There are a number of topics on here discussing how to do that.
 
Britstuff said:
HI Phil:

Based on a recommendation from a fellow forum member, (wish I could remember who it was, sorry). I have been using an "oil tap with cutout switch" from Kingpin Components to prevent wet sumping: https://www.kingpincomponents.co.uk/product-page/oil-tap-with-cutout-switch

Absolutely brilliant piece of kit! I have fitted one to each of my three current bikes, (two Nortons and an AJS). All three wet sumped, (including my 650SS with a brand new replacement oil pump that supposedly would prevent wet sumping - it did not). I have not had good experiences with anti-wet sump valves and personally would never install another one. The Kingpin components "oil tap with cutout switch" is more compact / less obtrusive than other taps I have seen, is easy to install and works flawlessly, (perfect example of "Keep it simple Stupid", (KISS)). To me at least, this is the best solution. Please see picture of my Commando installed tap below.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the link. From what others have replied above, I have an oil pump issue I need to get sorted first. I really didn't want to install a check valve &/or cutout, I'm a less is best type person. I always drain oil tank at the end of riding season anyway, so if it can sit for few days during riding season, and not be an issue, I'm good with that.
 
marshg246 said:
So, in your case we can say about 435cc (14.7 oz) in 24 hours so maybe 16oz in 24 hours is not excessive. I'm not saying anyone is wrong - just wondering and I have not measured myself.
Click to expand...
Yeah I read that, 400cc 1 hour after ride.

IDK what the actual sump level is while riding? I know Triumph sump level within 5 minutes after a ride should be less than 100cc on pre 1970 650 bikes.

My measurement was from an empty sump. I think it may be excessive, I'm gonna do some more research and perhaps call an old brit bike mechanic I know before I pull the pump.

I run 20w50 oil, and may just need to run straight 50w.

This is an interesting topic, I was afraid it had been over discussed in the past.

Thanks for all replies.
 
10drum said:
I thought it was excessive.
Oh boy!! I get to pull timing side cover.
The history? I know a little. The bike has 33K miles on it. I know at least the head has been repaired in the past, and the way it runs, compression, the plugs, and exhaust indicate good rings and valve guides, so I assume it's been re-built at least once. Everything else on the bike was wore out when I got it, except maybe the wheel bearings, they were fine, I've replaced &/or repaired just about everything else. this will be the my first venture into the engine.
Click to expand...
Oil tap with ign power interrupt works well for my 850 past 6 yrs. Cost my about $15 in bits to make it myself. Ride on.
 
Like Tornado, I put a manual oil line shutoff that cuts ignition and have no worries.

More important to me is that I put in a Holland Norton Works Oil pressure gauge. It's
a quality product.
Oil pressure cold was maximum about 30 psi.
Oil pressure very warm idle was 8 psi.

After I lapped the pump, maximum cold oil pressure is 40 psi and very warm idle oil pressure is
10 to 12 psi. So I am confident there is more flow than before.

Dennis
 
Update.

Asked an old timer if my wet sumping was excessive, he told me "yeah, but they all do that, some more than others, put an anti-sump check valve in and forget it".
 
10drum said:
Thanks for the link. From what others have replied above, I have an oil pump issue I need to get sorted first. I really didn't want to install a check valve &/or cutout, I'm a less is best type person. I always drain oil tank at the end of riding season anyway, so if it can sit for few days during riding season, and not be an issue, I'm good with that.
Click to expand...
Hi Phil:

Before I installed the taps on my Norton's I could go maybe (tops) two weeks between starts without major wet sumping. I do have reed valves installed on both bikes and have never had a problem starting while sumped. I just think it is easier, (less like wading through treacle) and a moot point with the taps installed.

IMHO I absolutely agree with those who say you should make sure your oil pump is in good condition and that oil pressure is sufficient - check the oil pressure relief valve, etc, etc. Not surprising I would agree, as both my Norton's had low oil pressure issues and the folks on this site helped me sort them out. Many of the guys on this forum have a lot of years experience with Norton's, much more so than me!

My, (now sorted) Commando is equipped with a Holland Norton Works oil pressure gauge. With 20w50w oil I get around 55 psi cold. Warm on tickover somewhere around 10 psi.

Good luck with your issue!
 
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If the bike is going to sit for a few weeks then a bit of wet sumping is good to keep the cam and all lubed, it only takes 5 mins to drain the sump, 16floz is not much at all its how much is in the sump after a week or 2 that counts, mine takes about 4 months to empty the oil tank into the sump, but my oil tank only holds 2 ltrs of oil, I also run with a mixture of STP in my oil and run a oil cooler for our warm weather, so before doing anything check it after its sat for some time or ride the bike regularly without any long breaks, no problems when ridden, do not put a anti sump check valve in your oil line, no need for it, just check the oil level in the oil tank before going out on it.
48+ years of riding my Norton I think I got it right.

Ashley
 
10drum said:
Yeah I read that, 400cc 1 hour after ride.

IDK what the actual sump level is while riding? I know Triumph sump level within 5 minutes after a ride should be less than 100cc on pre 1970 650 bikes.

My measurement was from an empty sump. I think it may be excessive, I'm gonna do some more research and perhaps call an old brit bike mechanic I know before I pull the pump.

I run 20w50 oil, and may just need to run straight 50w.

This is an interesting topic, I was afraid it had been over discussed in the past.

Thanks for all replies.
Click to expand...
I don't know how the sump volume compares to a 650 Triumph, but 400cc is what I got after giving hot oil an hour to drain down from its various nooks and crannies, not the sump level (and mesh filter don't forget) when riding. There's a fair amount of oil flying around inside, some will coat surfaces, most will find its lowest point.

Think about it another way. Would I expect a fresh oil change to take up 400cc from an oil tank? Seems reasonable to me. Probably more. I recently put a Honda CB750 engine back together. Even though I primed the oil pump and soaked the oil filter, I also dosed the cylinder head with 1/2 litre of oil. After the first start, I topped up the oil tank, as the level had dropped a little. So 400cc in a Commando sump seems reasonable to me. Happy to be corrected though.

I still suggest, if you're worried, a check on your oil pressure might be a good 1st step, before taking your oil pump to bits.
 
Send timing cover and oil pump to AMR and never worry again.. They rework oil pump and redirect oil $125 I think
 
If everthing is still handy to retest, try the test with the pistons near TDC. After shutdown, use the kickstarter by hand to roll pistons up till compression stops you. Wait a few seconds, then bump a bit more. This lessens static head pressure of the oil system and snugs oil holes against bushes, so I am told.
This also puts bike in a good orientation for an easy & quick roll-over when kick starting .
Cheers
 
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mean gene said:
Send timing cover and oil pump to AMR and never worry again.. They rework oil pump and redirect oil $125 I think
Click to expand...
There have been posts on this forum about failures of the AMR mod. Sorry, I cannot provide quotes, but it is has been said that
this mod can “fail” as well. What does not fail is a positive shut-off valve with an ignition interlink. Combine that with
a sump reed valve and you have perfection. I have also read of new oil pumps which wet sump out of the box as well as
original pumps which have been “re-built” and still pass oil. So, if your bike has adequate oil pressure (cold/hot/high rpm/idle
don’t worry about it unless you run a track bike.
 
There is no way that the AMR mod can fail and damage an engine like a valve in the intake line can. It is on the pressure side of the pump and uses a light spring. The worst knock against is that sometimes it doesn't always completely stop the wet sumping and only slows it down but a lot of those complaints were before they added the mod to the oil pressure relief return.
 
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