Is it just me? A serious question on restoring a Norton.

Hey guys.


In recent days I've been asking whether there's something about myself that invites vendors of goods or services to seriously f*ck with my head.

So much so I'm starting to seriously consider setting up my own shop and doing the whole freaking lot myself.

Or am I missing something here?

Is it normal to buy a new frame and have it delivered in a wildly floppy box and come pre-scratched?

Is it normal to send an oil tank off for a refurb, only to have it returned not only with the old oil still in it + all the media blasting now mixed in with it?

Is it normal to send a petrol tank off for a respray, to have it returned with a load of crap and overspray on the inside of it? Besides the fact it took "7 MONTHS" for the work to be done!

Is it normal to spend £200 on a fancy cam, only to find the '-tard' who machined it left all the shrapnel inside the thing?

Is it normal to send stuff off for media blasting, the vendor can't be bothered to clean the media out afterwards?

Is it normal when you send a set of barrels off for a rebore they come back having only a light hone, the score marks are still clearly visible?

Is it normal that when you question their work, they get aggressive?

The list goes on....And it really does!

I feel like the malfunction magnet.



So I've got a question for you guys....Should I be treating every purchase I make with suspicion? To carefully inspect/measure every component against specs, and not to take things at face value(i.e. expect products/services to be correct at the point of purchase), ever again?

I'm sorry for the bit of a rant...I'm just having some real issues here.

H

No, Question everything. You are the consumer. Without you the businesses would fold.

I am constantly amazed at what people pass off as being a finished good.

Some people over deliver, I like that. Those that under deliver loose my business.

There are good ones, they know they are and see the rewards of it.

Old Britts, CNW, Jim Comstock, Steadfast Cycles, Mikes XS, all have all treated me good and have exceeded expectations, And get my repeat business, and there are many others.

There is a list of vendors I will not deal with, some of them are full of themselves and overcharge for everything because they have a certain name.

Buyer beware, there is a lot of crap out there, but if you are careful and do your research, there are great deals on good stuff.

I prefer to do as much as I can in house, it saves me money and hassle. Plus it's a great feeling when you are done.

Hi Hegel

I looked to see where you were located and saw exactly what I expected to see.

Im very sorry to say it, especially considering our bikes were originally made, but over and over and over again my friends and I have found products and services from the UK to be generally of the lowest quality.

I have a good friend who worked for years in a supplier in NZ and they spent lots and lots of time trying to get good quality parts out of the UK. They would not deal with many suppliers and many parts ended up being re machined here to be fit for sale. He has endless stories of badly machined con rods, cams, gears etc etc.

I have found Mike Hemmings to be a guy who cares about what he sells. And Andover Norton parts are generally OK for the street at least.

But Im afraid we bring it on ourselves. My friend said only a small portion of their clients were prepared to pay for the quality parts and many customers went elsewhere saying they could get the "same" part cheaper down the street.

When you move onto racing it gets even worse.

John

Hegel said:

Hey guys.




So I've got a question for you guys....Should I be treating every purchase I make with suspicion? To carefully inspect/measure every component against specs, and not to take things at face value(i.e. expect products/services to be correct at the point of purchase), ever again?

I'm sorry for the bit of a rant...I'm just having some real issues here.

H

Click to expand...

I would say the issues are not yours, but rather with your suppliers/vendors. If you can't find someone willing to pay attention to details and do what YOU want, keep looking. My customers remind me of that fact every day.

I feel exactly the same way, after not having a bike for a long time it took me about two years to learn who the realy good people to do buisness with were & I still get bit once in a while from the least expected soarces. I just realized the Tommaselli adjustable clipp ons I bought last year from a good seller came with (2) Left side clamps. It's not that they can't be used but this means that the Right side will have the casting mark & Metric size indecater showing instead of the Tommeselli name stamp & allthough this is just cosmmetic it will bug me once in a while when I see it & it's just one more example a small detail being overlooked by a seller that says they just don't realy care. It took me a year & a lot of wasted $ to learn that the parts sold by the componies who are based on selling over the Internet may seem to have cheaper prices for the same goods & truely sometimes do but in the long run much of it is in fact lower quality stuff than if I had gone to one of the long time reputable " Norton " shops.. Live & Learn
I guess, when in doubt ask!! Good luck!

I do have some empathy with your rant. Having just finished a complete renovation my MK3 the best advice I could give anybody (based on experience during my build)is only order the parts you will need at the time. I know the postage adds up but this will save any grief if you find a problem with a particular part, you can then send it straight back! Anything that has a screw thread always try it if possible as soon as you get it to see if it fits okay- don’t leave it in the packet, newspaper or whatever for weeks later as the supplier might refuse to except the return if it doesn’t.
Some of the issues I went through included a new (genuine) camshaft that was shallow drilled and only had half the bolt threads so the bolt and seal guide wouldn’t fit (discovered that after the cam was fitted! :shock: ). Cylinder head bolts that didn’t fit. Main wiring harness that was too short and the wrong way round so had to be adapted.
All I want now is a supplier that has a decent set of balanced down pipes for a MK3 that fit, have the correct curves and angles and don’t look pissed. :?

Hegel said:

Hey guys.


In recent days I've been asking whether there's something about myself that invites vendors of goods or services to seriously f*ck with my head.

H

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It shows that you probably didn't do your research when selecting vendors. Nowadays it's stupid simple to know who to buy from and who not to.

Nothing but perfection from CNW.

You get what you pay for.....Really.

In 1971,i bought some Velocette parts fron the closeing factory [great loss to the world] the quaility was second to none...old school .
I guess the old days are good for ever, only a few truely good supplies left, near me a once well respected dealer sell's some indian/chinese crap now.
Its the dollar controlling the quaility today,ship it in,ship it out...and dont even inspect the stuff.

it really does come down to researching the people you deal with. When i started ordering parts for my norton, i looked around the net, and read things on here to get an idea of who's good and who should be avoided, but i also made small orders with multiple vendors just to see how things went. shipping rates, shipping times, attention to detail, communication etc. I've only really dealt with one business doing work on my norton, they've been in business since the late 60's, i just showed up at the shop to talk to the owner and get a feel for him and there were about 12 brit bikes MUCH nicer than mine so figured he must be doing something right.

Hi again guys,

Thanks for your replies and thoughts.

swooshdave,

All I can say is that I did the best I could, most of the vendors have had a recommendation through various magazines I've read in the last couple of years + word of mouth...So I don't see how I could have done any better?

One of the current ones I've been trying out promised me a 2 week turn around...Now it's nearly six. They also were recommended.

I get the impression that certain ones have some big money customers, so any one like my self, who's trying to keep within a budget has a real hard time getting them to pay any serious attention. Rules of the shark pool I guess.

Out of interest Skyguyz...How much did you pay for your rebuild?

Uggy850,

Funny you mention the problem you had with your cam. Got the same thing too. I'm going to have to strip the engine again, send it back and sort another problem a vendor said they'd do...But then didn't, even tho they'd agreed to help me out of a bit of a predicament . :evil: Oh well...At least, as my friends have been saying; "It's an excellent opportunity to learn a little extra" :roll:

I have to agree with you on only buying parts for specific jobs. I've learned that the hard way too. I've had it too many times when ordering multiple parts, for different areas of the bike they arrive all jumbled up.

How hard would it to be for a vendor to write on a packet or two, saying what 'x' bolts are, what 'Y' brackets are for? At least a day, or a month later you'd have some clue, eh? It's small attention to detail that makes the winners from the losers imo. I work in an industry that has quite often thousands of parts, to do other than have strict parts control/ labeling would make it impossible.

At least Andover have their part no's on the packets.

John....Funny you mention the racing industry...I worked for a company for a few years, supplied technology parts for everything from Karting to F1. I think it's one of the things that makes me so shocked about what I'm experiencing currently, for them; "Failure was not an option". It had to be quality and pretty much indestructible.

What often happens with parts for old bikes is that copies of copies of copies get made. Eventually the supplied part falls into the "useful lump" category as it now only an approximation of the original item. Customers receiving parts like this may call them something else, such as crap or some other derogatory name. In reality the producer may have tried very hard to do a good job of reproducing the item, but he was already miles off with the pattern being worked from.

This is why companies that produce a complete or refurbished bike (CNW) are probably going to have a connection to parts that actually fit and work. If that company has a "Get it Right" attitude to go with it, then the quality will be very good.
Norvil makescomplete bikes for the road, so their parts must fit together well enough to make a running machine, but Im not sure about the attitude of that company, I havent bought much from them.

The Vincent Spares co for years sold a collection of "useful lumps" that bore some resemblance to the original part but required additional skill/headscratching/grinding/filing/machining and in some cases, re-engineering in order to be used.
The exercise four years ago of assembling a complete running new twin completely from their spares taught them a lot. Like a lot of retailers, they dont actually make any of the parts, but the info gleaned was passed on rather forcefully to their myriad of suppliers, most of whom were happy to make the corrections to their patterns. Those that would not change were dropped.
Another big help was the retrieval of original drawings fairly recently.

I wonder how many Norton parts are made to the original drawings? Do the originals exist and if so, who has them?

Glen

Andover Norton has original drawings and makes parts to them with some known improvements when applicable. Read several of Joe's posts on this.

All the GENUINE AN parts I have received have been from a trusted vendor and met or exceeded their fit and finish.

If i'm worried about any part being close to original, fitting well, etc. i just get it from old britts/AN

Hegel said:

swooshdave,

All I can say is that I did the best I could, most of the vendors have had a recommendation through various magazines I've read in the last couple of years + word of mouth...So I don't see how I could have done any better?

One of the current ones I've been trying out promised me a 2 week turn around...Now it's nearly six. They also were recommended.

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This forum is a million times more valuable that any magazine article. It's also way better than any recommendations I could get anywhere else. This is the source of some of the cream of the crop in the Norton enthusiast world.

You've been on this forum for an extremely long time. Have you not gone on on the consensus of this forum for your vendor choices?

Hegel, you're in England which isn't the biggest country in the world. Unless you live at the tip of Cornwall, there is probably no major supplier who is not within a days drive. I gave up on mail order (except for small, OEM service parts) many years ago. The hassle and cost of sending back was just too great. I've driven from the Continent to Lancashire to deliver parts and then the same again to pick them up.

Dealing with suppliers face to face also means that they know exactly who you are.

I certainly wouldn't order a frame by post if I didn't have to. I'd want to have a look first. A lot of your problems relate to services rather than parts and many problems can be avoided by clearly setting out what you want done - specify 'blasting and ultrasonic cleaning' if that is what you want done.

I would never consider sending an oily part for blasting (in fact I would never risk blasting medium anywhere near an oil tank anyway) but it is always good practice to send clinically clean parts to repairers. It saves them time and trouble and shows that you care. I have always stripped fuel tanks back to bare metal and cleaned them internally before the painter sees them. If you don't then you can't know what sort of problems he will have to deal with.

Timescale is a problem, the nice guys are often the worst as they'll try to help customers out and jobs in hand get pushed down the queue.

If you've faced aggression when querying work then I'm pretty sure I know who you've been dealing with Some of the nastiest people have the best PR and contact with the magazines. Quite frankly, after all the adverse comments splashed over internet forums about the old scrote, I'm surprised that anyone still deals with him.

....by the way, be very careful if you decide to get any chroming done. That nearly always ends in tears.... :roll:

Old Britts and CNW

all you need

Hegel said:

So I've got a question for you guys....Should I be treating every purchase I make with suspicion? To carefully inspect/measure every component against specs, and not to take things at face value(i.e. expect products/services to be correct at the point of purchase), ever again?

H

Click to expand...

I think it's never a good idea to simply trust that someone did a perfect job, especially when you are bolting it to your baby. I make it a point to inspect, at least to my ability level, every part I get worked on, or buy new. Not that I don't trust anyone, but mistakes can happen to the best of us humans, and I don't want to find out about them at 80mph.

An old boss of mine once told me after checking my electrical work, "Nothing personal, I'm sure you did a great job, but I don't trust anybody when it comes to my life, or my wife"

Agree with most of the comments and Ive pretty much done the learning curve as well.
Must say that oldsters are upset with the drying up of NOS parts and just about everything
is new made at best or pattern at worst. Careful buying on ebay can help but it is tough to
tell without touching. Mostly I refer here to used parts. Buying in person pays if you can swing it.
Spending all your dough with one vendor can help as you are now a valuable customer.
Remember too that it isnt easy staying in business and making a decent living even harder.

We often read that Mick is great or that Old B. too. But beyond our favorite dartboard
portrait, it isnt often that we actually finger those who have disappointed us. It maybe
that we cannot do that , a shame really.

Oh, say, who is the plater of choice stateside? Im sure somebody does 3x plating
that satisfys ...

Sorry for slight diversion from the thread but to answer Onder's question - North Penn Polishing and Plating in Sellersville PA did a good job for me on my '51 ~M~ single stuff.

Back to the thread ---- It is always a crap shoot but usually the people who are good are expensive but you'll find it's worth it if you can afford it. However, OTOH some very expensive people really suck - so do your research - enough so you are comfortable trusting them!