Interstate Freshening

lcrken · Mar 12, 2013

worntorn said:
The Kibblewhite site mentions "our valve spring partners are US based and ISO certified"
Could easily be R/D. If so, the pricing is a bit better thru Kibblewhite.

Glen

Not unless they've changed suppliers in the last few years. I used to sell the KPM springs, but switched to R/D because I had a couple of the KPM springs break (in race bikes, not street use), and (at that time) I knew R/D was very high quality. The last batch of R/D springs I bought for Commandos had the wrong spring seats, so now I'm not quite as sure of their quality control. Still, I'm sticking with them unless I have more problems. They've always been very helpful when I had technical questions. I've also had great service from KPM on valves and guides and such, and it's hard to beat their Black Diamond valves, so I have no problems with their other products. Maybe they've upgraded their springs since the ones I had issues with. That was a couple decades ago.

Ken

lcrken · Mar 12, 2013

bwolfie said:
Here ya go, he keeps pulling out the good stuff, check his other items
http://www.ebay.com/itm/300874163676?ss ... 1423.l2649

Interesting to see that package offered. The Sifton 460 has always been my favorite cam for a 920 Norton, but they haven't been available for a long time. The NVT race shop in Southern California used them in some of their flat track bikes back in the '70s. I suspect some of the currently available cams that use BSA lifters are just as good, like maybe one of the grinds that Jim Schmidt offers, but I haven't tried any of them.

Seems a bit pricey, however.

Ken

comnoz · Mar 12, 2013

I have used both Kibblewhite and RD springs on racebikes. No problems with either.
RD has a range of springs with more pressure for rowdy cams.

The Kibblewhite springs are soft enough to use on a street application or roadracing with a fairly mild cam if you shim them a bit more. The Kibblewhite springs are a little cheaper mainly because they use an aluminum top cap instead of titanium. The aluminum caps are a bit lighter. Jim

swooshdave · Mar 12, 2013

Bill G said:
swooshdave said:

Since I tend to be the most verbose on the forum I thought I'd get some feedback.

:

Click to expand...

2nd most.

Bill G

Just in comparison to my brother. :mrgreen:

worntorn · Mar 12, 2013

The nice thing about the R/D for a roadbike is the spring pressure is still at spec after 50,000 or more miles of use. Kibblewhite might also have this kind of longevity, it would be interesting to measure and see.
The other thing done in Vincent World that may or may not transpose to Nortons is the use of Honda chrome rings. Honda went from throwaway metallurgy to about the best in the world over a twenty year development.
We've found that there is a ring made for a model of Honda that fits straight on the low expansion pistons we use. We dispose of the new cast iron rings that come with the pistons and fit the Honda rings. Now you can leave the top end together for 100,000 miles rather than seeing a traces of oil in the exhaust at 20,000 and totally knackered by 30,000.
The Honda rings cost about the same amount as the complete piston and ring sets do, but are well worth it.
Has anyone tried this with a Commando? Is there a Honda chrome ring that will fit any of the Commando pistons?

Glen

edgefinder · Mar 12, 2013

Sourcing honda rings for a Benelli that lasted or didn't last 10 thousand miles. Hope to have good results.

I was expecting it would be brought up that the tray under the cam doesn't hold enough oil to lube lobes at startup. I read that recently, don't remember if it was here.

worntorn · Mar 12, 2013

I see the pre 2002 Honda Pan European ST1100 has the same 73 mm bore as the 750 Commando. This might work. Haven't found a 77 mm Honda yet (for the 850)

Glen

comnoz · Mar 12, 2013

worntorn said:
The nice thing about the R/D for a roadbike is the spring pressure is still at spec after 50,000 or more miles of use. Kibblewhite might also have this kind of longevity, it would be interesting to measure and see.
The other thing done in Vincent World that may or may not transpose to Nortons is the use of Honda chrome rings. Honda went from throwaway metallurgy to about the best in the world over a twenty year development.
We've found that there is a ring made for a model of Honda that fits straight on the low expansion pistons we use. We dispose of the new cast iron rings that come with the pistons and fit the Honda rings. Now you can leave the top end together for 100,000 miles rather than seeing a traces of oil in the exhaust at 20,000 and totally knackered by 30,000.
The Honda rings cost about the same amount as the complete piston and ring sets do, but are well worth it.
Has anyone tried this with a Commando? Is there a Honda chrome ring that will fit any of the Commando pistons?

Glen

I have been running Kibblewhite springs in my 880 for many years. I checked them last time I had the head off and put them back in. I think that would have been somewhere close to 50,000 with a fairly stiff street cam. No complaints.

I like to use chrome rings from Weisco but I don't know if they have them for the wide grooves in a stock piston.
Chrome rings are available for the standard piston also. I keep a few chrome sets here but I don't recall which sizes without going to look. I get them from JE. Jim

mjfriesen · Mar 13, 2013

comnoz said:
Yeah,
which is the little brother.

I am the little brother.

And I liked this hand-me-down

johnm · Mar 13, 2013

swooshdave said:
I can't imagine that infrequent restarts would cause this much damage. We would see widespread issues like this.

Not sure I agree.

The very worse thing you can do to a cam is to start it dry and to let the bike idle straight away. It should come up to 2000 rpm straight away. Starting dry damages the harderning and from then on the cam just wears away. Repair must be done for both cam and follower.

I admit I am in a slightly special situation but the situation is worse than for a normal bike.. My valve springs are set at around 230 lb over the cam nose for higher rpm racing. This is against around 160 lb for a standard Commando set up. I always pour oil down the push rod tunnels if it has stood for more than a week.

After 10 years of racing the cam (PW3) and followers are perfect.

mjfriesen · Mar 13, 2013

I always pour oil down the push rod tunnels if it has stood for more than a week.

This will become my new routine.

I cant see how it could hurt.

johnm · Mar 13, 2013

A week might be a bit much for a normal set up but I definitly do it with my street bike if it has sat a month and over winter.

Oh and by the way if anyones taking notes I now think the 230 lbs is too high and I have been steadly working my way down toward 200. This is with a PW3 cam, and 500 valves. Smaller inlet valve than Commando. No valve control issues to over 8250 rpm. (Over rev recorded by on board video camera and Scitsu electronic tach) :roll:

drones76 · Mar 13, 2013

mjfriesen said:
I always pour oil down the push rod tunnels if it has stood for more than a week.

Click to expand...

This will become my new routine. I cant see how it could hurt.

Sounds like a new invention is needed. A tickler for preloading oil..... :shock:

comnoz · Mar 13, 2013

Sounds like a new invention is needed. A tickler for preloading oil..... :shock:[/quote]

Unless you instal an anti-wet-sump valve you already have one. Jim

concours · Mar 13, 2013

drones76 said:
mjfriesen said:

I always pour oil down the push rod tunnels if it has stood for more than a week.

Click to expand...

This will become my new routine. I cant see how it could hurt.

Click to expand...

Sounds like a new invention is needed. A tickler for preloading oil..... :shock:

Oil pressure accumulators are used in some marine/truck/industrial applications. I'll bet one of our highly motivated and skilled members could design a compact one.

dantriumph · Mar 13, 2013

comnoz said:
dantriumph said:

Hi All.
This is my first post here on this excelent forum, though I´ve bin member for some time and have read many interresting threads.
I have a MKIII and have had it for about 10 years. I have 2 cams that looks like the one in the photo. When we found the first one we (my dad and I, he has a 750) thought it was just a "soft" cam, as all the stories tell. Fitted a new standard cam, that was also soon gone, then we got suspicious. Then a Megacycle cam, that seems to be okay, at least it was last time I had the chance to have a look at it.
If this is a lube problem, then why is it always the left inlet and only the left? Why not both inlets or left in and outlet? Till now, noone has bin able to come up with a good reason???

Dan Christoffersen. Groningen, The Netherlands.

Click to expand...

The left side gets a little less lubricant than the right as the oil enters the right side of the crank. That alone shouldn't be the problem. What are you using for oil? Jim

Jim. I used Duckhams 20W50 when I could still get it. I now use Valvoline 20W50.

swooshdave · Mar 13, 2013

dantriumph said:
Jim. I used Duckhams 20W50 when I could still get it. I now use Valvoline 20W50.

Are either one for air cooled bikes? Or diesel trucks?

comnoz · Mar 13, 2013

Jim. I used Duckhams 20W50 when I could still get it. I now use Valvoline 20W50.[/quote]

I would suggest going to a heavy duty diesel oil. Rotella or Delo. Or a synthetic like Red Line or Mobil 1 v-twin oil.

Oils that are approved for passenger car use are not going to have the additives needed for a Norton camshaft due to environmental concerns. [catalytic convertor damage]

I lost a couple cams back some years ago that were undoubtedly because of oil breakdown. Since I have started using Mobil v-twin oil the camshafts stay new looking. Jim

dantriumph · Mar 13, 2013

The oil is for petrol engines, not for diesel trucks.
I´m not sure we have Rotella, Delo or Red Line oil here in europe, at least I´ve never heard of it. Mobile oil shouldn´t be a problem. My dad also used Duckhams in his 750 and hasn´t had any problem. I´ll have a look and see what oil I can finde.

comnoz · Mar 13, 2013

dantriumph said:
The oil is for petrol engines, not for diesel trucks.
I´m not sure we have Rotella, Delo or Red Line oil here in europe, at least I´ve never heard of it. Mobile oil shouldn´t be a problem. My dad also used Duckhams in his 750 and hasn´t had any problem. I´ll have a look and see what oil I can finde.

I am not familiar with Duckhams. Oils have changed over the last few years also. Oil that once was fine may not have the necessary ingredients anymore. Most new automobiles have roller cam followers and catalytic convertors so ZDDP has been eliminated.

Nearly any oil that is designed for HD diesel use will have the right additives. Diesel trucks don't have to deal with catalytic convertors of the type that are damaged by additives. [yet]

Interstate Freshening

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