Good Thing I Have an Oil Pressure Gauge!

Saber said:
Pardon my ignorance. What is a AMR conversion?
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A modification to the pre Mk3 Timing cover and oil pump to reduce wet sumping

AMR Nortec Mod

I know this has been covered before in places like this. https://www.accessnorton.com/NortonCommando/is-this-part-of-the-amr-nortec-pressure-relief-valve-mod.24205/ http://www.amr-tucson.com/nortech.html This involves the installation of a check ball in the timing cover at the point at which...
www.accessnorton.com www.accessnorton.com
 
There is a well known saying "if it ain't broke don't fix it" and that applies to ALL the attempts to "improve" the lubrication and crankcase breathing systems on the Commando engines starting with the factories own deletion of the timed breather, replacing it with a dumb (literally!) breather.

My advice is to take your modified timing cover and throw it over the nearest hedge, then fit a non-improved one. Use a completely standard pressure relief valve and Andover-Norton supplied oil seals. Check that the oil pump turns freely but has no discernable end play when bolted to the crankcase (by feel only), without the crankshaft drive gear fitted. Do not assume that a new pump will be perfect. If there is end play have it fixed, the NOC had instructions on how last time I checked - this is well worth the effort when properly done. Check all internal components, oilways and surfaces for foreign objects and remove if found. You probably don't use silicone sealant on any engine components so this is for the benefit of those who do - Never use silicone sealant anywhere on your engine, nor anything else except oil if appropriate, that could be squeezed out of the joint on assembly.

Feel free to disagree with me.
 
Saber said:
Pardon my ignorance. What is a AMR conversion?
Click to expand...
3 parts to it:
1. Redrilling/plugging to get the pressure relief exit to be the same as pre-commando & Mk3.
2. Spring/ball check valve on the discharge of the oil pump - similar to Mk3
3. Machining + 2 o-rings inside the pump to prevent oil passing between pressure & scavenge sides of the pump.

Anti Wet Sump Information – Alternative Motorcycle Repair

www.amr-of-tucson.com www.amr-of-tucson.com

I believe it is a worthwhile modification đź‘Ť đź‘Ť
 
hybridracer said:
There is a well known saying "if it ain't broke don't fix it" and that applies to ALL the attempts to "improve" the lubrication and crankcase breathing systems on the Commando engines starting with the factories own deletion of the timed breather, replacing it with a dumb (literally!) breather.

My advice is to take your modified timing cover and throw it over the nearest hedge, then fit a non-improved one. Use a completely standard pressure relief valve and Andover-Norton supplied oil seals. Check that the oil pump turns freely but has no discernable end play when bolted to the crankcase (by feel only), without the crankshaft drive gear fitted. Do not assume that a new pump will be perfect. If there is end play have it fixed, the NOC had instructions on how last time I checked - this is well worth the effort when properly done. Check all internal components, oilways and surfaces for foreign objects and remove if found. You probably don't use silicone sealant on any engine components so this is for the benefit of those who do - Never use silicone sealant anywhere on your engine, nor anything else except oil if appropriate, that could be squeezed out of the joint on assembly.

Feel free to disagree with me.
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What makes you think I used silicone sealant?
 
hybridracer said:
Never use silicone sealant anywhere on your engine, nor anything else except oil if appropriate, that could be squeezed out of the joint on assembly.

Feel free to disagree with me.
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You are entitled to your own thoughts for sure. I think that school of thought is no longer true though. Sealers have improved a lot in the last 50 years.

I don't think the surfaces on Nortons are all that flat, so I do use a silicon based high end high heat sealer instead of a gasket on the base of my barrels. No leaks and I haven't seen any of it in the sump screen. I also have excellent oil pressure.

I do have a modified timing side case and use a CNW breather on the back of the timing side case where the magneto used to live. Motor runs better than it ever has.
 
.
Schwany said:
You are entitled to your own thoughts for sure. I think that school of thought is no longer true though. Sealers have improved a lot in the last 50 years.

I don't think the surfaces on Nortons are all that flat, so I do use a silicon based high end high heat sealer instead of a gasket on the base of my barrels. No leaks and I haven't seen any of it in the sump screen. I also have excellent oil pressure.

I do have a modified timing side case and use a CNW breather on the back of the timing side case where the magneto used to live. Motor runs better than it ever has.
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Loctite 518 is not silicone, it is an "anaerobic" sealant.
 
Had the AMR mods on 4 bikes, no issues. I also used Threebond aka Hondbond or Yamabond on the seam between the cases and barrel to cases. Just need to spread an extremely thin layer. I used a nitril glove and just smeared on enough to barely coat one surface. No silicon floating around. I cringe when I see someone squirt a big worm of sealer all the way around and then jam the parts together. More is not better when it comes to sealer. A surprisingly small amount will get the job done.
 
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hybridracer said:
I wrote - You probably don't use silicone sealant on any engine components so this is for the benefit of those who do
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I would think that any silicone sealant used ends up in the sum screen or the oil filter. So what harm can the excess do??
I have rebuilt car engines but not motorcycle engines in the past.
 
DennisMo said:
I would think that any silicone sealant used ends up in the sum screen or the oil filter. So what harm can the excess do??
I have rebuilt car engines but not motorcycle engines in the past.
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Ask someone who has pulled about 2 metres of excess silicon sealer strands out of an engine some 'expert' was supposed to have built!

If you over do it, it ends up everywhere. If you don't, it still ends up in oil ways. Silicone sealer is seriously bad news, except on exhausts!

Thankfully, sealer technology has moved on from that orange shite that was prevalent in the late '70s, which itself replaced Red Hermetite, which had problems all of its own.

Threebond 1184 is my preference. Be careful just saying 'Threebond', they make a range including a silicone version.
 
hybridracer said:
There is a well known saying "if it ain't broke don't fix it" and that applies to ALL the attempts to "improve" the lubrication and crankcase breathing systems on the Commando engines starting with the factories own deletion of the timed breather, replacing it with a dumb (literally!) breather.

My advice is to take your modified timing cover and throw it over the nearest hedge, then fit a non-improved one. Use a completely standard pressure relief valve and Andover-Norton supplied oil seals. Check that the oil pump turns freely but has no discernable end play when bolted to the crankcase (by feel only), without the crankshaft drive gear fitted. Do not assume that a new pump will be perfect. If there is end play have it fixed, the NOC had instructions on how last time I checked - this is well worth the effort when properly done. Check all internal components, oilways and surfaces for foreign objects and remove if found. You probably don't use silicone sealant on any engine components so this is for the benefit of those who do - Never use silicone sealant anywhere on your engine, nor anything else except oil if appropriate, that could be squeezed out of the joint on assembly.

Feel free to disagree with me.
Click to expand...
I do. Though equally I feel free to agree that silicone sealer is for bathtubs, sanitary ware......and exhausts!

I also note that Norton modified the oil ways in the timing cover through the life of the engine, some good some bad, but the important issue is to use one suited to your cases.
 
My go sealant is Permatex "The Right Stuff". Sets to the comnsistency of a rubber band. The only downside is that it can sometimes be tough to separate covers etc when it is used on the gasket. Is anyone familiar with it?

Sounds like Threebond 1184 is similar to it
 
Dan1950 said:
What makes you think I used silicone sealant?
Click to expand...

This is what he said. "You probably don't use silicone sealant on any engine components so this is for the benefit of those who do."


And I do agree partially with not to use silicone. *** At least for some people. ***

It depends on a lot of factors, like the first one would be : 1) Some people should not be rebuilding anything let, alone engines.
2) you need to read all the information in the shop manuals and online and understand what you see. 3) and a lot of stuff online is not true.

I've seen shops do terrible work and supposedly they had experience? Which I did not see in the job they did. These were Norton dealers in my area. For Example. One Combat basket case I got from a dealer with a supposedly rebuilt engine had enough blue silicone in it to "plug a hole in a dam."**** It certainly plugged all the oil passages up, they did not leak at all!****
 
DennisMo said:
I would think that any silicone sealant used ends up in the sum screen or the oil filter. So what harm can the excess do??
I have rebuilt car engines but not motorcycle engines in the past.
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I once saw a Harley Shovelhead engine that had the top end damaged because silicone clogged the oil feed to the heads. The guy that worked on the engine was a mechanical imbecile and he smeared gobs of silicone on the timing cover when he installed it.
 
Dan1950 said:
.

Loctite 518 is not silicone, it is an "anaerobic" sealant.
Click to expand...
I was responding to the hybridracer who said not to use silicone sealer on an engine.

I knew that you weren't using silicone sealer, I also know what 518 is. I've not had much luck with anaerobic sealant, which is why I don't use it.

If applied to the right thin thickness on clean surfaces a silicone sealer works. Can't use the cheap stuff though. I sealed both the cases and the barrels base with Permatex Optimum Max Torque 27036 and let it dry for 2 days before doing any other wrenching. I would use Right Stuff, but it is very difficult to separate parts sealed with it. I am not recommending using what I used. I'm just giving an example of it working without causing any problems. I think Yamabond works well, but I don't like working with it.

I'm still working on getting my imbecile merit badge.
 
When my xs1100 threw a rod it punched it's was out of cases and hit my right shin
When I stripped the motor to take a look I found the sump strainer almost completely blocked with shards of orange and blue gasket sealants
The bike had had several owners
It seems they'd all had a go at that motor
I'd never seen so much debris in a sump
When I told my mate he said he always drops the sump to clean the strainer on any Japanese bike he brought
I wished I had done that!
 
SteveA said:
I also note that Norton modified the oil ways in the timing cover through the life of the engine, some good some bad, but the important issue is to use one suited to your cases.
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That doesn't mean they new what they were doing. I was a Chief there during the Rotary years and spent several enjoyable and profitable years trouble shooting engine design flaws, failures and anything else I could find to fix. If any of you has a Rotary bike, I did the work that led to the addition of molybdenum inserts in the rotor end plates.
Many of the staff there had worked at Norton for many years and I heard many horror stories, including how the final batch of Commandos were built.
 
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