Good Thing I Have an Oil Pressure Gauge!

Dan1950 said:
If I hadn't had the gauge to warm me, the only indication of insufficient lubrication would have been engine noise after the damage was done.
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Dan, how do you know this? Have you confirmed there is a definite problem with the oil system?

If I remember, all you've told us is when the motor gets hot, the oil pressure drops. It drops further than it did before rebuild. Can't say if that's surprising, nice clean oil galler / lines etc.

If you are alarmed, or there are other symptoms (?), only two ways to know if your statement is correct: ride it, or dismantle it. 👍
 
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Lineslinger said:
I have, depends on the engine.

Point being the possibility of an installation issue.
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On some of the engines I have built that could happen, where the cam is fed from the main pump fed oil gallery, but on the Norton is no oil gallery fed from the pump!
 
Lineslinger said:
I have, depends on the engine.

Point being the possibility of an installation issue.
Click to expand...
The only potential installation issue is that to fit a Norton cam you have to split the cases, so you have disturbed most everything, the 'installation' of the cam has no bearing on oil pressure.
 
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marshg246 said:
I assume that you are now ready for feedback, so...

IMHO:
1) Oil pressure switch, nice to have but not required. Start the bike, check for oil returning to the tank, tells you nearly the same thing.
2) Oil pressure gauge, like Alice, curiouser and curiouser. Tried one on a perfectly running Norton - 5 psi all the time - it scared me until I threw it away.
3) If oil is returning to the tank, there is oil in the rocker area, and your engine didn't explode, you're good. It's about flow, not pressure.
4) The OPRV, when stuck open can cause low flow to where it's needed - rare for one to stick open but can happen with dirty oil.
5) I use dino oil 20W50, don't idle, don't lug. Overheated multi-weight oil becomes the lowest weight. Years ago, when you could get it, I used SAE 30 in the winter and SAE 50 in the summer. Synth oils not designed for old, air-cooled engines should not be used in old, air-cooled engines.
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I like most of this, but we aren't going to have an oil thread......:eek:
 
Dino multi grade oil has additives to increase the viscosity with temperature. Lose the additives and the oil reverts to the thin base oil.

Fully Synthetic multi grade has additives to thin the oil at low temps. Lose the additives and the oil reverts to the thick base oil.

Now you have to do a big milage to use all the additives but which base oil would you prefer.
 
SteveA said:
The only potential installation issue is that to fit a Norton cam you have to spit the cases, so you have disturbed most everything, the 'installation' of the cam has no bearing on oil pressure.
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I simply meant an installation/rebuild issue relating to camshaft spindles, bearings, clogged passage, stuck relief valve, on and on and on.
That was why I asked about photos to review rebuild steps....maybe gain some insight of find an indicator leading to problem.
Hope this helps.
 
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SteveA said:
On some of the engines I have built that could happen, where the cam is fed from the main pump fed oil gallery, but on the Norton is no oil gallery fed from the pump!
Click to expand...
That is correct.
Reference was to a variety of engines big and small, not just motorcycle engines, I guess I should have clarified this.
Hope this helps.
 
Okay, perhaps I can take enough time to give a full synopsis of my situation.

First of all a bit about the engine. It has JS Forged flat top pistons running at approximately 10.1: 1 static compression, Web 312a cam on flat tappets and AMR anti-wet sump and PRV mod.

Rocker spindles oriented correctly, bearing clearance, although a bit on the high side is still within acceptable specifications. Crankshaft and play is correct. Piston clearance and ring gap are correct. Cam end float and bearing clearance are correct. Cam timing is correct and timing chain tension is correct. I not only have the old Brits oil pressure gauge feeding off of the port side rocker feed, but an oil pressure light using Greg's oil pressure sender at the rocker feed banjo.

I have over 50 years experience building engines the various size and types. Mechanically the engine is what it should be. It seems that there is a problem with the oil system.

As stated previously in my first post I was on my first ride. The bike seemed to be performing beautifully at 55 to 60 mph so I opened the throttle up and it easily pulled to 4,000 RPM. About that time I noticed oil pressure dropping to slightly below 30 PSI. I was not concerned at that time because before the rebuild the bike would carry about 28 lb of oil pressure at cruising speed. I did notice that the engine seem to be laboring a little and about that time the oil pressure started dropping more. Once it got below 25 psi I backed off on the throttle and dropped back to about 55 mph. The oil pressure continued to drop and as it got down to 15 psi I started to let off and coast. The oil pressure continued to drop so I shut it down. Some people in the driveway of a house invited me to push my bike into the driveway. It seemed to be running hot.

I called my son to come and get me with the trailer. It took him a while because he lives quite a ways from where I was. We loaded up the bike, took it to my garage and unloaded it. Just for the heck of it I tried starting it. It fired right up and had good oil pressure. The engine sounded sweet. My son followed me around town and the bike was carrying 35 PSI putting around town so I decided to take it out on the road again. I figured maybe I just pushed it a little bit too much being that it was a new, tight engine and the ambient temperatures were near 90° F. I didn't go above 60 mph but about 15 minutes into the ride the oil pressure started dropping again so I pulled over to let the bike cool down.

Since I was closer to my destination than home I knew that I could let the bike sit for a while as I had a few beers, so I decided to ride a few miles to the local watering hole. By the time I got there oil pressure was dropping but I was just putting through town so I was able to make it to the bar and let it set for quite a while as I had a couple of beers. After the cool down I started it up. Oil pressure was good and everything sounded fine as I started riding towards home.

Again, the oil pressure started to drop. During that ride I came to the realization that I had used 10w30 Royal purple break in oil. I figured that might be the source of my problems.

The next day my son come over and we changed the oil and filter to Royal purple 20w50. I checked the magnetic drain plug and it showed a bit of "hair" on the magnet which to me was not alarming and was merely an indication of the rings seating in to the cylinders. We checked the sump screen and found a few small pieces of the loctite 535 that had squeezed out into the case and a couple little flakes of aluminum which were most likely just something that had gotten into the case while we were assembling it.

I thought I had found the problem so I went for another ride. Everything was fine until I went to pass a car and brought the revs up a bit. The oil pressure started to drop. I pulled over and let the bike cool and then rode it home.

The bike still seemed to be running hot so I checked the ignition timing and found it it was retarded. I advanced the timing and the bike seemed happier, so quiet at cruising speed you can hardly hear the exhaust. Everything seemed fine till I had to climb a hill and the oil pressure started dropping again. The engine seemed to be laboring but it was not making any drastic noises. As it got into town there was another watering hole to stop at and as I stopped, the oil pressure light was flickering at idle. That is something that had never done before. For one thing it told me that the oil pressure light didn't come on until oil pressure was next to zero. After I let it cool I rode it home and it has been sitting since.
 
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Hi ,I'm fairly new to the Norton motor , but isn't the oil circuit fairly simple on a Norton, out of the pump , seal on the outlet into the cover gallery then into the end of the crank with a crank seal that oil feeds the crank , head is fed via the external hose , it has splash for the cam , and of course a scavenge return , maybe you have a open gallery i:e timing cover gallery and once your viscosity drops it could be bleeding out too quickly , could you check only the timing cover pressure when hot block off the head feed, atleast you might be able to work out which bit to work on .
 
Pull your oprv and give it a shake. Mick Hemmings in his engine rebuild DVD says it should just barely rattle when correctly shimmed.
If it seems pretty loose add shims.
 
My drivel below is not guessing it is common sense based on owning a Norton as long as you have been building engines. I've rebuilt the motor trying new things out 5 times and never had an oil pressure issue, nor have I blown the motor up.

Get an oil seal set for the timing cover, get the JSM timing cover gasket and take the timing cover off. Be aware that the AMR ball bearing might fall off into your drain pan and you'll have to fiddle with it to reinstall it. Also check and correct the OPRV as mentioned. Button it up and take it for another ride.

Break-in oil for an old air-cooled motorcycle is a mistake IMO, but it is water under the bridge now. I doubt the break in oil did the big end shells any good, but the engine is still quiet which is generally a good sign. You can consider it a loose race build.

10:1 is going to run on the warm side, oil pressure at idle is going to go down some, but oil pressure should never go down on acceleration. You know this were wise to get that first trailer pick up from your son. If you are lucky your problems are all behind that timing cover.

I have no experience with the AMR parts, and don't know what he does to the OPRV. I did have a ball bearing and spring in my engine timing side before AMR existed, but never felt comfortable with adding something to block the oil path, so it's all in a plastic bag now. Anyway, 2 shims in the OPRV on my motor was excessive. I had 80psi at cold start up with 2 shims. I'm back to 1 shim. Just an example.
 
Schwany said:
My drivel below is not guessing it is common sense based on owning a Norton as long as you have been building engines. I've rebuilt the motor trying new things out 5 times and never had an oil pressure issue, nor have I blown the motor up.

Get an oil seal set for the timing cover, get the JSM timing cover gasket and take the timing cover off. Be aware that the AMR ball bearing might fall off into your drain pan and you'll have to fiddle with it to reinstall it. Also check and correct the OPRV as mentioned. Button it up and take it for another ride.

Break-in oil for an old air-cooled motorcycle is a mistake IMO, but it is water under the bridge now. I doubt the break in oil did the big end shells any good, but the engine is still quiet which is generally a good sign. You can consider it a loose race build.

10:1 is going to run on the warm side, oil pressure at idle is going to go down some, but oil pressure should never go down on acceleration. You know this were wise to get that first trailer pick up from your son. If you are lucky your problems are all behind that timing cover.

I have no experience with the AMR parts, and don't know what he does to the OPRV. I did have a ball bearing and spring in my engine timing side before AMR existed, but never felt comfortable with adding something to block the oil path, so it's all in a plastic bag now. Anyway, 2 shims in the OPRV on my motor was excessive. I had 80psi at cold start up with 2 shims. I'm back to 1 shim. Just an example.
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I'm waiting on an oil pump gasket and oil. When they arrive, I'll check the items related to the timing cover.
 
Dan1950 said:
Okay, perhaps I can take enough time to give a full synopsis of my situation.

First of all a bit about the engine. It has JS Forged flat top pistons running at approximately 10.1: 1 static compression, Web 312acam on flat tappets and AMR anti-wet sump and PRV mod.

Rocker spindles oriented correctly, bearing clearance, although a bit on the high side is still within acceptable specifications. Crankshaft and play is correct. Piston clearance and ring gap are correct. Cam end float and bearing clearance are correct. Cam timing is correct and timing chain tension is correct. I not only have the old Brits oil pressure gauge feeding off of the port side rocker feed, but an oil pressure light using Greg's oil pressure sender at the rocker feed banjo.

I have over 50 years experience building engines the various size and types. Mechanically the engine is what it should be. It seems that there is a problem with the oil system.

As stated previously in my first post I was on my first ride. The bike seemed to be performed beautifully at 55 to 60 mph so I opened the throttle up and it easily pulled to 4,000 RPM. About that time I noticed oil pressure dropping to slightly below 30 PSI. I was not concerned at that time because before the rebuild the bike would carry about 28 lb of oil pressure at cruising speed. I did notice that the engine seem to be laboring a little and about that time the oil pressure started dropping more. Once it got below 25 psi I backed off on the throttle and dropped back to about 55 mph. The oil pressure continued to drop and as it got down to 15 psi I started to let off and coast. The oil pressure continued to drop so I shut it down. Some people in the driveway of a house invited me to push my bike into the driveway. It seemed to be running hot.

I called my son to come and get me with the trailer. It took him a while because he lives quite a ways from where I was. We loaded up the bike, took it to my garage and unloaded it. Just for the heck of it I tried starting it. It fired right up and had good oil pressure. The engine sounded sweet. My son followed me around town and the bike was carrying 35 PSI putting around town so I decided to take it out on the road again. I figured maybe I just pushed it a little bit too much being that it was a new, tight engine and the ambient temperatures were near 90° F. I didn't go above 60 mph but about 15 minutes into the ride the oil pressure started dropping again so I pulled over to let the bike cool down.

Since I was closer to my destination than home I knew that I could let the bike sit for a while as I had a few beers, so I decided to ride a few miles to the local watering hole. By the time I got there oil pressure was dropping but I was just putting through town so I was able to make it to the bar and let it set for quite a while as I had a couple of beers. After the cool down I started it up. Oil pressure was good and everything sounded fine as I started riding towards home.

Again, the oil pressure started to drop. During that ride I came to the realization that I had used 10w30 Royal purple break in oil. I figured that might be the source of my problems.

The next day my son come over and we changed the oil and filter to Royal purple 20w50. I checked the magnetic drain plug and it showed a bit of "hair" on the magnet which to me was not alarming and was merely an indication of the rings seating in to the cylinders. We checked the sump screen and found a few small pieces of the loctite 535 that had squeezed out into the case and a couple little flakes of aluminum which were most likely just something that had gotten into the case while we were assembling it.

I thought I had found the problem so I went for another ride. Everything was fine until I went to pass a car and brought the revs up a bit. The oil pressure started to drop. I pulled over and let the bike cool and rode it home.

The bike still seemed to be running hot so I checked the ignition timing and found it it was retarded. I advanced the timing and the bike seemed happier, so quiet at cruising speed you can hardly hear the exhaust. Everything seemed fine till I had to climb a hill and the oil pressure started dropping again. The engine seemed to be laboring but it was not making any drastic noises. As it got into town there was another watering hole to stop at and as I stopped, the oil pressure light was flickering at idle. That is something that had never done before. For one thing it told me that the oil pressure light didn't come on until oil pressure was next to zero. After I let it cool I wrote it home and it has been sitting since.
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It sounds like, as an experienced & knowledgable engine builder, you have covered most all the bases well. 🏁😎👍🏻

This, however:
"We checked the sump screen and found a few small pieces of the loctite 535 that had squeezed out into the case and a couple little flakes of aluminum which were most likely just something that had gotten into the case while we were assembling it."
concerns me the aluminum bits are dismissed. Doesn't fit the pattern.

Please borescope the combustion chambers and also the crankcase. (SOOO inexpensive now, with great resolution)
In addition to the earlier discussed timing chest inspection.
www.harborfreight.com

Digital Inspection Camera

Amazing deals on this Digital Inspection Camera at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.
www.harborfreight.com www.harborfreight.com
 
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Dan,
I am just wondering if the AMR conversion could have anything to do with your problem.Plug in the correct hole,check valve spring and ball,etc. I had a little trouble understanding the instructions when I installed one of these.Just a thought as you have done a nice job with this motor rebuild.
Mike
 
Dan1950 said:
Okay, perhaps I can take enough time to give a full synopsis of my situation.

First of all a bit about the engine. It has JS Forged flat top pistons running at approximately 10.1: 1 static compression, Web 312a cam on flat tappets and AMR anti-wet sump and PRV mod.

.......
Click to expand...
Well, my money is on the AMR section of that. Certainly, I think the answer lies in the timing chest rather than the crank and bearings.

One question, in addition to all of that AMR mod entails, you may or may not have considered the total volume of oil that ends up in the timing chest. Meaning the amount that accumulates over a period of running.

And you may or may not have addressed engine breathers and the blocking of the oil/air holes between the crank area and timing chest, depending on your choice. I'm sure you told us before what you have settled on but I don't recall, though maybe it was a Mikes XS type valve to the rear of the timing chest? In which case your inner air paths should be open. (if you went with a NYC Norton or CNW reed then they should be closed.

Odd that you mention you are waiting on an oil pump gasket, but they have been fitted incorrectly before, completely or partially blocking oil holes. I can only guess you are considering checking the oil pump. I doubt it is your problem. Considering what you spent elsewhere, I hope it is a new one!

I hope you ordered a timing cover gasket and seals too, you may have had high start up pressure and popped the crank seal, though you don't mention your gauge showing that happen! If it has popped it won't recover, you will lose oil pressure and the oil level in the timing chest when running will be too high, which leads me to......

......one mod that can be found somewhere in Jim Comstock's output is adding a drain hole lower in the case around the oil pump area to control maximum oil level. I think it makes sense to keep timing chest oil volume down, or if a large volume of oil collects, it gets very hot in there.

I would show a photo of the drain hole I drilled in my Maney cases, but the location isn't relevant because my engine mounts vertical in the Rickman.
 
YING said:
Dan,
I am just wondering if the AMR conversion could have anything to do with your problem.Plug in the correct hole,check valve spring and ball,etc. I had a little trouble understanding the instructions when I installed one of these.Just a thought as you have done a nice job with this motor rebuild.
Mike
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SteveA said:
Well, my money is on the AMR section of that. Certainly, I think the answer lies in the timing chest rather than the crank and bearings.

One question, in addition to all of that AMR mod entails, you may or may not have considered the total volume of oil that ends up in the timing chest. Meaning the amount that accumulates over a period of running.

And you may or may not have addressed engine breathers and the blocking of the oil/air holes between the crank area and timing chest, depending on your choice. I'm sure you told us before what you have settled on but I don't recall, though maybe it was a Mikes XS type valve to the rear of the timing chest? In which case your inner air paths should be open. (if you went with a NYC Norton or CNW reed then they should be closed.

Odd that you mention you are waiting on an oil pump gasket, but they have been fitted incorrectly before, completely or partially blocking oil holes. I can only guess you are considering checking the oil pump. I doubt it is your problem. Considering what you spent elsewhere, I hope it is a new one!

I hope you ordered a timing cover gasket and seals too, you may have had high start up pressure and popped the crank seal, though you don't mention your gauge showing that happen! If it has popped it won't recover, you will lose oil pressure and the oil level in the timing chest when running will be too high, which leads me to......

......one mod that can be found somewhere in Jim Comstock's output is adding a drain hole lower in the case around the oil pump area to control maximum oil level. I think it makes sense to keep timing chest oil volume down, or if a large volume of oil collects, it gets very hot in there.

I would show a photo of the drain hole I drilled in my Maney cases, but the location isn't relevant because my engine mounts vertical in the Rickman.
Click to expand...
I too suspected that the AMR mods might be the culprit. I spent quite some time on the phone with AMR and I will definitely check out that possibility. During that conversation oil scavenging was discussed at length.
 
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