Genuine
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SteveA
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Hi guys first post from a Brit who does not own a Commando, rather I am in the process of building a Rickman Norton based on a frame I commissioned from Rickman in '75 in which I fitted a 'genuine' Commando engine that came to me in parts in ways I will not explain but from the Norton Experimental shop and Thruxton Race shop.
I sold the bike in 1980, and bought the frame back in 2009 after discovering its whereabouts in 2007.
There is a demand for quality parts, and quality parts may be manufactured from drawings. I guess if you own the original drawings you have a right to describe parts as 'genuine', and if you make every attempt to supply quality parts you have a right to say that. Clearly expectation varies.
But using the example of Fitforx, who I last had contact with in 2009 and Maxton who I last had contact with this year one can see how supply and demand is not as simple model as it sounds.
It has been explained that Fitforx business model was based on purchasing quality parts and providing service skills beyond those of the home amateur and motorcycle shops who rarely dealt with fork overhauls of older machines. One assumes the main customer base consisted of those whose desire is to achieve performance and finish of a serviceable motorcycle somewhat comparable to the original manufacturer, or at least as befits a useable vintage motorcycle. The project will work to the owners budget and standards. and he expects to do the job once within that budget.
Maxton on the other hand serves a high performance and race market that seeks to enhance the performance of suspension systems well beyond the original specification. This requires a knowledge of motorcycle suspension beyond that applied to production machinery and a specific knowledge of the application, e.g track day, short circuit, Isle of Man etc. etc. So supplier and customer work together to come to a given specification of the job. Whilst standard parts are used in some applications most parts are manufactured to suit from chosen materials and then machined to fit the installation. This work is charged at appropriate rates as befits bespoke suspension development. Maxton remains in business because the demand comes from competitive people who are prepared to pay to achieve and edge.
For the record I have a Suzuki GSXR750 SRAD with Maxtonised forks and shock which works very well on track days, and I have a set of Ceriani style forks and a pair of race rear shocks made by Maxton from scratch, and set up to suit my application, I have yet to use them but am confident they will meet my needs for both as supplied performance and adjustability.
The bottom line is Fitforx as described were not able to be masters of their own destiny, which Maxton are, due to dependence on suppliers over which they had no control. Their decision to close the doors rather than enter the manufacturing business was probably a sensible one. The market they were serving was unlikely to have understood the quality they would have had to achieve in specifying and machining parts to suit the application, and would have been unlikely to pay for it.
Without direct experience of them, Andover Norton appear to be a business seriously based on a quality approach, but I suspect at times they will still be unable to directly control the quality achieved by suppliers. I also suspect that at times potential quality is limited by the quality actually achieved by Norton in the 1970s, and I suspect we all have opinions on that! The positive point must be that they review the efforts of each supplier and make changes when needed, and improve designs where needed too. They also must depend on honest feedback from customers. Simple ranting will not help anyone.
The answer must be that, as an individual, to source quality parts you need to understand more of the processes of manufacturing and retailing of the parts you need to maintain 40 year old equipment, than you need to source parts in the first 10 years of life of a model, when the original manufacture is somewhat compelled to support you.
And it seems also to be true that the sourcing of the parts you need will come down to a handful of suppliers worldwide, and you will need to develop trust in them. I would suggest you will never do that if you think all suppliers are crooks. You really do get what you pay for guys.
Steve
I sold the bike in 1980, and bought the frame back in 2009 after discovering its whereabouts in 2007.
There is a demand for quality parts, and quality parts may be manufactured from drawings. I guess if you own the original drawings you have a right to describe parts as 'genuine', and if you make every attempt to supply quality parts you have a right to say that. Clearly expectation varies.
But using the example of Fitforx, who I last had contact with in 2009 and Maxton who I last had contact with this year one can see how supply and demand is not as simple model as it sounds.
It has been explained that Fitforx business model was based on purchasing quality parts and providing service skills beyond those of the home amateur and motorcycle shops who rarely dealt with fork overhauls of older machines. One assumes the main customer base consisted of those whose desire is to achieve performance and finish of a serviceable motorcycle somewhat comparable to the original manufacturer, or at least as befits a useable vintage motorcycle. The project will work to the owners budget and standards. and he expects to do the job once within that budget.
Maxton on the other hand serves a high performance and race market that seeks to enhance the performance of suspension systems well beyond the original specification. This requires a knowledge of motorcycle suspension beyond that applied to production machinery and a specific knowledge of the application, e.g track day, short circuit, Isle of Man etc. etc. So supplier and customer work together to come to a given specification of the job. Whilst standard parts are used in some applications most parts are manufactured to suit from chosen materials and then machined to fit the installation. This work is charged at appropriate rates as befits bespoke suspension development. Maxton remains in business because the demand comes from competitive people who are prepared to pay to achieve and edge.
For the record I have a Suzuki GSXR750 SRAD with Maxtonised forks and shock which works very well on track days, and I have a set of Ceriani style forks and a pair of race rear shocks made by Maxton from scratch, and set up to suit my application, I have yet to use them but am confident they will meet my needs for both as supplied performance and adjustability.
The bottom line is Fitforx as described were not able to be masters of their own destiny, which Maxton are, due to dependence on suppliers over which they had no control. Their decision to close the doors rather than enter the manufacturing business was probably a sensible one. The market they were serving was unlikely to have understood the quality they would have had to achieve in specifying and machining parts to suit the application, and would have been unlikely to pay for it.
Without direct experience of them, Andover Norton appear to be a business seriously based on a quality approach, but I suspect at times they will still be unable to directly control the quality achieved by suppliers. I also suspect that at times potential quality is limited by the quality actually achieved by Norton in the 1970s, and I suspect we all have opinions on that! The positive point must be that they review the efforts of each supplier and make changes when needed, and improve designs where needed too. They also must depend on honest feedback from customers. Simple ranting will not help anyone.
The answer must be that, as an individual, to source quality parts you need to understand more of the processes of manufacturing and retailing of the parts you need to maintain 40 year old equipment, than you need to source parts in the first 10 years of life of a model, when the original manufacture is somewhat compelled to support you.
And it seems also to be true that the sourcing of the parts you need will come down to a handful of suppliers worldwide, and you will need to develop trust in them. I would suggest you will never do that if you think all suppliers are crooks. You really do get what you pay for guys.
Steve
SteveA
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grandpaul said:
Thanks Paul. Apparently...
, but of course I need to be very careful, apart from the MkIII 'engine' sourced from Norton as noted above, I sourced 'genuine' Norton parts in the '70s mainly from Webbs of Lincoln for my 750 fastback Production racer and from Mick Hemmings for the 850 Rickman. I also had some dealings with the then Norton Owners club spares secretary, Les Emery, who I am sure many of you know as the driving force behind Fair Spares and the current owner of the Norvil brand. Mick Hemmings also supported the rework and reclamation of broken race parts! When I built engines I used as reference John Hudsons original notes as supplied to Norton dealers. The 850 was basically a 750 Short Stroke with an 89mm crank and smaller gudgeon pins in the Omega pistons (the race shop built a few of these engines which gave an extra 20bhp at 4000 compared to a 750, but about the same at the top end) But this is all a long time ago now and all that alloy iron and steel is nowhere to be found. :roll: I know already that my needs for Norton replica parts will be met solely by Steve Maney, Mick Hemmings, Andover Norton and Norman White and Jim Schmitt. I have so far spent money with Steve and Jim, but as soon as I get more funds I will be dealing with the others. Depending on available funds I may elect also to deal with RGM for some transmission and brake parts. Mick Hemming is the UK provider of FullAutoTech heads, which would be nice, but I need to know more about the tuning scope, compared to an original head, and I might never actually have the money I want for the head and porting! I hope to learn more on that one on this forum.
The motor however is the heart but only part of my project, and I think I need to get my chassis rolling done before I have the pleasure of a Norton engine build from scratch, which I last conducted in the '70s and expected never to do again! That is the plan for 2012 but since I also want to race, including I hope on a borrowed Rickman Norton, and I actually work in Italy and live in the UK I am a 'bit' time constrained as well as money constrained!
Quality is important to me, obviously, but good parts are only a departure point only. It is far too easy to destroy them with ignorance as much as ineptitude. Unless you are very foolhardy you don't build a 750 Short Stroke with Carillo Rods and lightweight pistons without anticipating high RPM and intending to use it to the full, and it is my old neck on the line after all! Buy right, inspect, build right, and if it turns to shit you have only yourself to blame. :shock:
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I would think Maxton has to be amongst the very best in the world for custom made suspension to go on pretty much any older bike! The guy who founded Maxton worked for HRC directly over a period of 10 years, and even built frames which were used on their MotoGP bikes.
Interesting about the Rickman Norton........there is a guy not far from me who worked in the Rickman R&D shop for many years, and still seems to be a dab hand with a gas fluxer torch!
Interesting about the Rickman Norton........there is a guy not far from me who worked in the Rickman R&D shop for many years, and still seems to be a dab hand with a gas fluxer torch!
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Carbonfibre said:
Carbonfibre said:
That is a very big claim to make, Grandma !
So has he ridden a Commando either ?
And has he actually supplied anything suspension-wise for a Commando.
Words are cheap, backing them up with facts is the proof-of-the-pudding....
Speaking of cheap, MotoGP quality suspension is likely to cost an arm and a leg, maybe this is where the plot falls down ? Show us an example of what he has supplied .
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I would have thought anyone with much knowledge of serious motorcycling would know exactly who Ron Williams is?
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Inquire with Maxton here. IIRC about $600+ to convert Roadholders insides.
http://www.maxtonsuspension.co.uk/
Ohlin rears with most, all the bells and whistles available.
http://www.jcmotors.com/p-13873-hlins-a ... dwg-9.aspx
http://www.maxtonsuspension.co.uk/
Ohlin rears with most, all the bells and whistles available.
http://www.jcmotors.com/p-13873-hlins-a ... dwg-9.aspx
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Rohan said:
Most people are certainly happy with cheaply made off the shelf suspension, but just because some are content with parts that simply dont work, doesnt mean everyone feels the same! Those that dont want rubbish handling go to people like Maxton, who is I think the only place in the world where you would be able to get top class suspension made in house, for just about any bike you care to mention.
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A ridgid frame with Girder forks is starting to look appealing . :shock: :?
SteveA
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Carbonfibre said:
Ron Williams has retired now, but the business supplies a huge section of the classic racing world as well as modern bikes, and few know as much about making a bike work around the Isle of Man. They are extremely well respected in the racing world, and they will improve any road bike for actually very little cost comparative to standard parts.
And yes they know a bit about Commando forks, they do Manx and Seeley front ends, based on the standard Norton fork sliders and the rest built by them, or they will mod your Commando ones as you want, but they recommend using their own sliders, which are a '70s Ceriani replica, in which they can more accurately fit better bushes and achieve lower stiction, and before you say yes of course they would, the cost is around the same for either due to the extra machining and fitting required on the Norton sliders.
Take a look at the Classic Manx and you will find a huge amount of there products and it is the same in the UK Classic Racing MC race paddock.
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Graeme.GRM 450 said:
on smooth roads my pre-war girder forked triumph is smooth! But hit the rough and its hang on, having only a sprung seat for the rear doe's not help :lol:
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GRM 450 said:
Maybe I'm just getting old but I just don't have that problem. The roads around here can be a bit rough and maybe I can set a bike up a bit better than I thought, but mine certainly wouldn't tank slap. I always wondered why people fitted steering dampers to Commandos and I'm still wondering.
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