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On this forum the term GENUINE keeps cropping up. What are genuine parts as opposed to pattern?
Genuine
- Thread starter john robert bould
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A very good question.
Arguably there are no genuine new parts as the people who made them when the bikes were in production are almost certainly not making them now. Andover Norton come closest to the claim of 'genuine' parts as I believe they have the drawings etc from the factory.
It means most parts now are pattern parts, which isn't neccesarily a bad thing, as some of them are an improvement on the original parts. Of course some are worse. Sadly we are down to reputation, experience, & luck to sort the good from the not so good. I usually stick to Andover, Norvil or RGM & haven't had too many disappointments.
Ian
Arguably there are no genuine new parts as the people who made them when the bikes were in production are almost certainly not making them now. Andover Norton come closest to the claim of 'genuine' parts as I believe they have the drawings etc from the factory.
It means most parts now are pattern parts, which isn't neccesarily a bad thing, as some of them are an improvement on the original parts. Of course some are worse. Sadly we are down to reputation, experience, & luck to sort the good from the not so good. I usually stick to Andover, Norvil or RGM & haven't had too many disappointments.
Ian
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john robert bould said:
Genuine = Andover
Parts made from original drawings (where available).
Everything else is most likely made from measuring existing parts. If you know about Production Tolerances you know that this is not a great idea.
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Genuine = Andover = arrived with part sealed inside with a Green Globe logo label with part number for as good - close - better than factory supplied - during its hey days of barely making it. The most risky dangerous item to receive in non Genuine quality are the rod bolts. Least problematic are the reverse cone silencers sound and finish. Alas Anover-Fair Spares do not supply all the items that make a Command all Norton anymore.
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So if a firm was faxed an original drawing.. say in china ,would these parts produced be classed as genuine :?:swooshdave said:
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As I understand it, the owner of the trademark is allowed to call his products 'genuine', no more, no less. That's why Fairy Spires registered the 'Norvil' name, so that he can say 'Genuine Norvil'.
There are often visual differences, even with Andover products but I trust them in terms of engineering and 'genuinely' do feel that they value their good name.
There are often visual differences, even with Andover products but I trust them in terms of engineering and 'genuinely' do feel that they value their good name.
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john robert bould said:
Drawings are only the dimensions. You'd want to make sure the materials were as original or better. Do you trust your Chinese source for this? :mrgreen:
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My 2 Cents
A manufactured product can only be original once. The logical question then is; what can be done with a machine and the machine still be considered original? If you talk with the classic car guys and the other classic motorcycle guys the general consensus is that you can use the machine and maintain it by replacing consumable parts (parts that the manufacturer designated in their manuals as service and maintenance parts). Once a component has been overhauled, refinished or replaced due to damage the machine is considered no longer original.
Genuine parts are assumed to be parts made by the, or an original manufacturer (companies used multiple suppliers for some parts). It is assumed that any part not made by the original manufacturer is a reproduction.
Based on these assumptions then what difference does it make? I believe that it depends on how the owner represents the machine and what the expectations of the buyer are? If I am an investor and I specifically want an original, I would require the owner to prove the machines originality. If I am an enthusiast that wants to use the machine I would not want an honest original because I could not use the machine without regard to service life. Once an original is used to the point that it is not serviceable then it has lost its value as an original, because it would have to be overhauled or repaired to be serviceable again; therefore it would no longer be original .
So the discussion here is; given that original and genuine are mostly of interest to investors as opposed to enthusiasts the issue is what reproductions are acceptable quality to satisfy the stock classic enthusiast, as opposed to what custom parts are good enough quality to satisfy the custom classic enthusiast. The answers are found for Norton Commandos here on this forum from the members who have used them.
A manufactured product can only be original once. The logical question then is; what can be done with a machine and the machine still be considered original? If you talk with the classic car guys and the other classic motorcycle guys the general consensus is that you can use the machine and maintain it by replacing consumable parts (parts that the manufacturer designated in their manuals as service and maintenance parts). Once a component has been overhauled, refinished or replaced due to damage the machine is considered no longer original.
Genuine parts are assumed to be parts made by the, or an original manufacturer (companies used multiple suppliers for some parts). It is assumed that any part not made by the original manufacturer is a reproduction.
Based on these assumptions then what difference does it make? I believe that it depends on how the owner represents the machine and what the expectations of the buyer are? If I am an investor and I specifically want an original, I would require the owner to prove the machines originality. If I am an enthusiast that wants to use the machine I would not want an honest original because I could not use the machine without regard to service life. Once an original is used to the point that it is not serviceable then it has lost its value as an original, because it would have to be overhauled or repaired to be serviceable again; therefore it would no longer be original .
So the discussion here is; given that original and genuine are mostly of interest to investors as opposed to enthusiasts the issue is what reproductions are acceptable quality to satisfy the stock classic enthusiast, as opposed to what custom parts are good enough quality to satisfy the custom classic enthusiast. The answers are found for Norton Commandos here on this forum from the members who have used them.
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From my limited experiance, I see today dealers [traders] retailing "anything" there is a dollar to be made.
I have worked in the old industry where every part i produced was inspected ,being called back to the checking table to remove the slightest bur,before the passed lable was attached..and then i got paid!
These £50 fork stanchions available on ebay would end up in the scrap bin!
The fork bush's are just as bad, i have found some four thou tapered and made from cheap brass. I did not buy them by the way,they where supplied by customers who struggled to assemble the forks.
Sending poor items back ,will not improve the standards, because the returned parts will be sent back out to the next customer!
If your old original stanchions are straight ,get them re-chromed, expensive [£100] but they will last a life time .
I have worked in the old industry where every part i produced was inspected ,being called back to the checking table to remove the slightest bur,before the passed lable was attached..and then i got paid!
These £50 fork stanchions available on ebay would end up in the scrap bin!
The fork bush's are just as bad, i have found some four thou tapered and made from cheap brass. I did not buy them by the way,they where supplied by customers who struggled to assemble the forks.
Sending poor items back ,will not improve the standards, because the returned parts will be sent back out to the next customer!
If your old original stanchions are straight ,get them re-chromed, expensive [£100] but they will last a life time .
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John Robert Bould tries to start a war here without being fully informed.
He moaned- in another thread- Andover Norton don't manufacture their own parts, but have them manufactured by machine shops in the Birmingham area to Andover Norton's drawings and specs, often with Andover Norton's own tooling resp. materials (say, our seamless steel tubing for fork stanchions).
I wonder if John Robert Bould, in his crusade, has ever taken the trouble to look into a Norton history book and has seen the dump that the legendary Norton Motors Ltd in Bracebridge Street was. They could not have made a component in that hole if their life had depended on it. They simply didn't have the SPACE. Have you ever taken the trouble to go there and see the place- it is still there- with your own two eyes?
They were DEPENDANT on getting their components made out-of-house. In fact, this is how most of the British motorcycle industry- with the exception of the BSA empire, perhaps- worked, and how every modern car and motorcycle manufacturers works.
"Genuine" for me is not so much the formal ownership of trademarks, the aquisition of which is often a case of ursurping them when nobody is looking or interested. The "Trademarks" Commando and Norvil come to mind in this context.
"Genuine" for me has several preconditions:
- the original drawings that contain all the information on materials, tolerances, finishing processes (f.e. hardening);
- original tooling like casting molds, forging tools, jigs etc;
- a direct "blood line" to the- in our case no longer existing- manufacturer. I do not mean this in a romantic sort of way , but in that those who work there now got their knowledge passed down from those who were there at the time.
- the company must be "industry", not a retailer gone haywire.
All the above criteria are only met by Andover Norton. The company was founded in 1977 as a direct decendant of Norton Villiers. Our Managing Director Nick Hopkins was with the company from Day 1. Chief buyer Bob Reynolds, with Norton since production times, taught Peter Morris, our current buyer, his trade. Then again, Pete came from Norton Motors (1978) Ltd. We can still, if necessary, call on Richard Negus' services. Richard was draughtsman in Commando production days and later Chief of Motorcycles in Norton Rotary days. Our drawings are often originals drawn in Bracebridge Street days. Our tooling is partly genuine ex-production, partly re-made in the last three decades.
All others in the field started out- and, in all cases, still are- motorcycle shops that exploited the gullability of press and motorcycling public as well as the weak phases in Norton's history to build their myth of "being Norton" or, at least "being part of Norton". They aren't, and never were. The only companies with historical, direct ties to Norton Motors Ltd/Norton Villiers/Norton Motors (1978)Ltd, re. corporation and personell, are the companies my family owns- Andover Norton, Norton Motors Ltd, Norton Motors (Deutschland) GmbH.
I invite John Robert Bould to have a look around Andover Norton. And I ask him, who is still annoyed about pirate stanchions he bought (as we don't make pre-featherbed ones they must be pirate) to inspect our own stanchions and only THEN decide if he wants to grind and re-chrome his old ones.
Joe Seifert
He moaned- in another thread- Andover Norton don't manufacture their own parts, but have them manufactured by machine shops in the Birmingham area to Andover Norton's drawings and specs, often with Andover Norton's own tooling resp. materials (say, our seamless steel tubing for fork stanchions).
I wonder if John Robert Bould, in his crusade, has ever taken the trouble to look into a Norton history book and has seen the dump that the legendary Norton Motors Ltd in Bracebridge Street was. They could not have made a component in that hole if their life had depended on it. They simply didn't have the SPACE. Have you ever taken the trouble to go there and see the place- it is still there- with your own two eyes?
They were DEPENDANT on getting their components made out-of-house. In fact, this is how most of the British motorcycle industry- with the exception of the BSA empire, perhaps- worked, and how every modern car and motorcycle manufacturers works.
"Genuine" for me is not so much the formal ownership of trademarks, the aquisition of which is often a case of ursurping them when nobody is looking or interested. The "Trademarks" Commando and Norvil come to mind in this context.
"Genuine" for me has several preconditions:
- the original drawings that contain all the information on materials, tolerances, finishing processes (f.e. hardening);
- original tooling like casting molds, forging tools, jigs etc;
- a direct "blood line" to the- in our case no longer existing- manufacturer. I do not mean this in a romantic sort of way , but in that those who work there now got their knowledge passed down from those who were there at the time.
- the company must be "industry", not a retailer gone haywire.
All the above criteria are only met by Andover Norton. The company was founded in 1977 as a direct decendant of Norton Villiers. Our Managing Director Nick Hopkins was with the company from Day 1. Chief buyer Bob Reynolds, with Norton since production times, taught Peter Morris, our current buyer, his trade. Then again, Pete came from Norton Motors (1978) Ltd. We can still, if necessary, call on Richard Negus' services. Richard was draughtsman in Commando production days and later Chief of Motorcycles in Norton Rotary days. Our drawings are often originals drawn in Bracebridge Street days. Our tooling is partly genuine ex-production, partly re-made in the last three decades.
All others in the field started out- and, in all cases, still are- motorcycle shops that exploited the gullability of press and motorcycling public as well as the weak phases in Norton's history to build their myth of "being Norton" or, at least "being part of Norton". They aren't, and never were. The only companies with historical, direct ties to Norton Motors Ltd/Norton Villiers/Norton Motors (1978)Ltd, re. corporation and personell, are the companies my family owns- Andover Norton, Norton Motors Ltd, Norton Motors (Deutschland) GmbH.
I invite John Robert Bould to have a look around Andover Norton. And I ask him, who is still annoyed about pirate stanchions he bought (as we don't make pre-featherbed ones they must be pirate) to inspect our own stanchions and only THEN decide if he wants to grind and re-chrome his old ones.
Joe Seifert
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Joe, Just how thick is the chrome on your stanchions,its OK i know what microns are :lol:
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I would say that if anyone supplying pattern Norton parts today, was concerned more with quality than the cost of whatever it is they are selling, they are probably not going to be in business for very long. Its different in the case of actual producers, making low numbers of very high quality items along the lines of Steve Maney for instance, as there is always going to be a ready market for things like this.
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a few months ago I bought a new front fender. a "Genuine" Andover part from a well known supplier. It was perfectly shipped and perfectly wrapped.
upon opening I saw noticable tooling marks on each side of the fenders outer edge where it wraps under the outside diameter. Not just in one spot, but along most of the entire edge on both sides! I thought the fender was somehow just not caught in the quality control prior to shipping as it had it's wrapping un-opened and "factory fresh. I was hoping for a perfect fender that I could possibley use as a "show" bike, or least a fender that was good or equal to the "original" , but aged and bent fender I was replacing from my Norton. I called my supplier and she checked the other two she had in stock. She had to unwrap the factory paper wrapping to check. She saw the same tooling marks as I did.
I was very dissappointed and she offered to take back the fender, but as I needed a fender I decided to keep it. So no matter what the source, it's always a "buyer beware" proposition.
I had another problem with "Genuine" a steering damper. The mounting holes were off a tick where when attempting to mount woudlnt line up exactly, Again I called my supplier and she called the maufacturer who said all were produced to drawing spec. I ended up opening up the hole a bit with a rat tail file to make things fit properly while mucking up a little of the powder coating. In the same package the chromed spacers were corroded and couldn't be polished out. Luckilly I found some at McMater-Carr a local industrial harwdare supplier for a couple of bucks. I had better succes with other "Genuine" parts, but the two high dollar ones mention are a sore spot that really stand out for me.
JD
upon opening I saw noticable tooling marks on each side of the fenders outer edge where it wraps under the outside diameter. Not just in one spot, but along most of the entire edge on both sides! I thought the fender was somehow just not caught in the quality control prior to shipping as it had it's wrapping un-opened and "factory fresh. I was hoping for a perfect fender that I could possibley use as a "show" bike, or least a fender that was good or equal to the "original" , but aged and bent fender I was replacing from my Norton. I called my supplier and she checked the other two she had in stock. She had to unwrap the factory paper wrapping to check. She saw the same tooling marks as I did.
I was very dissappointed and she offered to take back the fender, but as I needed a fender I decided to keep it. So no matter what the source, it's always a "buyer beware" proposition.
I had another problem with "Genuine" a steering damper. The mounting holes were off a tick where when attempting to mount woudlnt line up exactly, Again I called my supplier and she called the maufacturer who said all were produced to drawing spec. I ended up opening up the hole a bit with a rat tail file to make things fit properly while mucking up a little of the powder coating. In the same package the chromed spacers were corroded and couldn't be polished out. Luckilly I found some at McMater-Carr a local industrial harwdare supplier for a couple of bucks. I had better succes with other "Genuine" parts, but the two high dollar ones mention are a sore spot that really stand out for me.
JD
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For me this brings up the point that the best owner and rider for vintage motorcycles like the Norton is someone who is a very competent mechanic/engineer.
You have to know not only how to disassemble and reassemble your bike, but you have to know how to use precision measuring tools and you have to know enough about manufacturing methods so that you can look at a replacement part and tell how it was made and if it was made well enough to be reliable and safe.
The more years that go by, the more people there are buying these bikes that don't have a clue about them other than they "look neat" or they are trendy and will be nice to sit on at "bike night" at some nearby parking lot.
Maybe one in a hundred owners has the abilities mentioned above that will enable them to ride and work on the bike for months or years without asking several questions for every mechanical step they take.
Point is if you are not capable of doing the mechanical and engineering work and inspection yourself, you had better have a lot of money because you are going to end up buying bad parts, and paying bad mechanics to do bad work, then if you are lucky you will spend more money buying good parts and paying a good mechanic to do it right.
It is a personal decision to get into vintage motorcycles, those who think it is fun riding a machine that needs constant care and adjustment and cash infusions are all set, those who do not know the above going in may quickly be turning their "investment" over and moving on with other things.
You have to know not only how to disassemble and reassemble your bike, but you have to know how to use precision measuring tools and you have to know enough about manufacturing methods so that you can look at a replacement part and tell how it was made and if it was made well enough to be reliable and safe.
The more years that go by, the more people there are buying these bikes that don't have a clue about them other than they "look neat" or they are trendy and will be nice to sit on at "bike night" at some nearby parking lot.
Maybe one in a hundred owners has the abilities mentioned above that will enable them to ride and work on the bike for months or years without asking several questions for every mechanical step they take.
Point is if you are not capable of doing the mechanical and engineering work and inspection yourself, you had better have a lot of money because you are going to end up buying bad parts, and paying bad mechanics to do bad work, then if you are lucky you will spend more money buying good parts and paying a good mechanic to do it right.
It is a personal decision to get into vintage motorcycles, those who think it is fun riding a machine that needs constant care and adjustment and cash infusions are all set, those who do not know the above going in may quickly be turning their "investment" over and moving on with other things.
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