Gas tank sealer

Ron,

I have a glass tank on my 72 Roadster. It has not been lined, but I've not used it for well over a year. I want to replace it with a metal tank. If steel, I assume this should be lined too. Correct? How about aluminum? I'm very vary of the epoxy liners. Seems that many here have had problems.

Okay, Jean, now give it a REAL test.

Put some Coke in that bottle and let it work its magic!

After that, I'd try some vinegar.

If it survives all that, hell ya, you got a winner.

By the way, I'm in the SE Wisconsin, USA part of this earth.

Keeping in mind here that I'm the greenest of Norton novice's: when I got my father's bike after he passed (Interstate 750), I dropped it off at a Harley repair shop. A basic greaseball shop, looked like they had some decent guys, knowledgeable. And they were, could spot a rube like me instantly, took my money for not much of anything. Anyway, I actually ran the bike for a bit. Wrist bones actually ached after a ride from the heavy vibrations (but I hope to get that all sorted out later). Began fouling out on me. Here's what I (eventually) found out, and please recall I never met another Norton owner at that time (i.e. no knowledge of potential/KNOWN tank issues): to late, I drained some fuel out of the cocks into a clear glass jar because of ongoing problems. At the bottom, under about 2" of pure, clear fuel (looked clear as water) I found a finger thick, ugly assed black WORM of a substance. Obviously much heavier than the fuel, it was very distinctly seperated from the fuel while maintaining it's own liquid state. When shaken up, it would instantly settle back into it's own chemical consistancy. Ergo, even though a novice rookie... I was able to decide that what I was looking at was 'leeched' fiberglass epoxy and/or resin. I think I am in one of only 2 or 3 spots in the USA federally FORCED to use this ethanol AND 'reformulated' gas/petrol. The fuel near instantly F'd up the tank. Due to it's heavier composition, this resin (or epoxy? both?) would accumulate at the bottom of the tank after being shut down, which obviously allowed it to be sucked into the carbs (which are a mystery to me by the way) immediately upon start up. That, in turn, burning dirty, fouling the plugs. Literally would look like a thin black plastic coating covering the electrodes within a single mile.

By the way, I guess I'm being careful to write this very clearly in the hopes that it becomes clear to some future reader exactly what and how this destruction of the tank occurs, at least as it did with mine.

Anyway, this above mentioned Harley shop (now out of business) poured SOMETHING into the tank. Whatever it was, was a complete failure. I've slowly, ever-so-PAINstakingly removed 97% of that crap, and will post a pic when I get that figured out. Prior to all this trouble, the bike did indeed seem to run quite well enough, mechanically, though again... I'm not that experienced.

So, as I see it, I need to:
1.) seal my father's Interstate tank
2.)replace the fuel lines with in-line filters
3.)clean possibly rebuild the Amals (which are black magic boxes to me)
4.)clean plugs
5.)device a quick fuel drain plug so the bike doesn't even sit a week with fuel in the tank (what a PITA!!)

So, perhaps over simplified, but that's how I see it. Then, enjoy the bike as I learn a LOT about it, enough until I feel comfortable with a complete restoration somewhere down the road.

But it all seems to hinge on that damned tank, hence my trying to develop a 'permanent' fix. If any of you guys are in my area, would love to get together, try to brainstorm an awesome solution to share with Norton Nation. Now, I forget who wrote it, but one of you guys (above) mentioned that today's MODERN epoxy AND resin will withstand ethanol. How positive are you of this? Seems like a tank could be split open...

Is it hard to locate a steel interstate tank for purchasing???

JimC,
I would not worry about lining a steel tank unless it shows evidence of rusting inside. Condensation is the enemy of steel tanks. I keep my tanks filled and add Sta-Bil if they are not going to be run for a while.

Gasoline bulk plant and refineries have a large investment in their tanks and an interest in preventing rust from contaminating the product. Hence they will line a carbon steel tank. They also have the ability to enter the tank, sand blast the surface and spray the liner to assure proper application. No one has yet figured out how to blast the inside of a motorcycle tank and get inside to inspect every corner. I believe this is the cause of failure in many slosh lined tanks.

Jeandr has the best solution. Cut out the bottom and paint the epoxy on the inside, then re-install the bottom. Many are like me and have no experience in working with fiberglass, so would be hesitant. I think I would find a boat repair shop and see if they can take the tank apart and put it back together.

Aluminum reacts with alcohols as well, but it is doubtful gasoline would have enough alcohol to worry about. There are a lot of aluminum tanks out there with no reported problems. Nevertheless I would drain gasoline from an aluminum tank if it were to be stored for the winter.

Ron L said:

The gunk we see in our carburettors is probably accumulated garbage let loose by new fuels, not ethanol nor methanol.

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I wish this were the case. Early fiberglass tanks were made using polyester resins in the glass mat. Polyester is not resistant to many alcohols and other oxygenated solvents. Theses blends in today's gasoline slowly begins to dissolve the cured polyester resin. Modern tanks are usually made from vinyl ester or epoxy resins which are quite resistant when cured. Lining the tank with a cured epoxy resin should be resistant if done properly. However, I would not trust that just because you buy a new tank it was made with something other than polyester.

The large steel gasoline storage tanks are lined with epoxy coatings to prevent damage from water and rusting. Those tanks are used for many years.

http://buyat.ppg.com/REP_aerospace_files/IndSealants/pr-670_05_08_web.pdf

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You could be right about polyester resins for large manufacturing runs, all the fibreglass I ever used was epoxy resin and this is the stuff I used to line my café's tank in addition to sealing it, so I am pretty sure it is safe for any gas. As for underground gas tanks, the ones I saw being put in a local station a few years ago were indeed all fibreglass and I saw a customer in a former life producing these tanks, different countries may have different rules too and they could have found that rats were eating the tanks so now they are made with some kind of a steel sandwitch :wink:

All this talk about gas being so bad makes me feel good about riding a bicycle whenever I can :mrgreen:

Jean

Gary -

I've never seen issues of the magnitude you're talking about, but have heard similar stories. My own experience is that I have painted two 72 fiberglass Nortons in the last few years and both developed bubbles under the paint from fuel permeating the fiberglass. Both had been previously sealed with some sort of tank sealer, which apparently is adequate to prevent the catastrophic gumming you describe but not good enough to prevent paint damage.

My recommendation is that if you intend to keep the bike bite the bullet and get a steel tank. Otherwise you'll be dealing with this on a recurring basis.

For what it's worth,

POR15 and fibreglass tanks, even new ones, Does NOT work. It comes away from fibreglass after a couple of weeks and it's a bugger to get the bits that do stick out.

Hirsch Gas Tank Sealer does work very well, 2 years now, and it's been down the road and still no leaks and no resin deteriation at all. Good stuff. (clean tank, rinse with acetone quickly, drain, add Hirsch while the resin is still tacky)

graeme.

Another thing to consider and may be a localized problem is different chemicals other than what is meant to be in fuel... Many shoddy fuel companies have in the past mixed crap in the fuel to get rid of the crap and to make more money... Used cleaners, detergents, used oil or whatever mixed with 100,000 gallons of fuel would increase profits and we unknowingly disposed of someones hazardous waste...

This was a big problem that had a bunch of cars in the repair shops in and around Louisville, Ky area when I lived near there a few years back.

Without a chemical testing lab in our back pocket, how do we really know what is getting dumped in our tanks? And it could be different every time we fill up...

BrianK said:

Okay, Jean, now give it a REAL test.

Put some Coke in that bottle and let it work its magic!

After that, I'd try some vinegar.

If it survives all that, hell ya, you got a winner.

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Can I use white vinegar or must it be balsamic :?:

OK, so the brain trust recommends, @ least at this time, the following?

1.) replace with a steel interstate tank (ok, someone please sell me, or tell me where I can get one, as I'd love to get my Dad's bike back on the road).

2.) I've heard nothing but "failed" regarding Kreem and POR-15; so...

3.) either Caswell, Hirsh's (per Jean and Greame) or the stuff Ron supplied a link to.

Ron, now would be a great time for you to say you've used that stuff w/o any problems for a decade, or so. Failing that, have you used it? Also, Ron... allow me to ask for a better clarification re your mention of poly fiberglass. Are you speaking of poly used as the fiberglass strands ITSELF (not either the resin or epoxy)? I have thought of cutting her open. Toyed with (and discarded) re-'glassin the interior. I guess what I could do, is simply coat a container using epoxy and resin ONLY, pour in some gas, and see if anything 'leeches' out over a few months (if I use 'glass itself, the fuel would never actually touch the 'glass, it being covered by the epoxy/resin).

Greame, sounds like your two (2) years using the (?) Hirsch may very well supercede Jean's current testing of it, time-wise... would you be kind enough to explain more in depth? Like, how long you leave the fuel in, your use, etc? And for me, if no-one else, please feel free to speak to me as if I'm a 10 year old kid (and slow at that, lol's) so as to ensure I get exactly what it is you mean.

I have spent the last couple of months slowly getting that failed crap out of my Dad's tank a bit at a time. Will not go into what a major pain it is.

Actually, if someone can direct me to anyplace that sells steel interstate tanks, I guess I'd prefer that. Get her on the road, and I'd love to take her over to my father's gravesite, and 'project' that I just gave him a big smile (hmm, sounds weird, but if you'd known my Dad you'd understand).

My friend treats steel gas tanks this way: He sends them to a place where they cut the bottom out, sandblast the insides and then they re weld the bottom back on. The outfits that does it guarantees the job for 5 years. I had my Yamaha's tank done this way after it had been stored for 17 years. I think it should be OK and I will not let it go again for so long with gas in it. So you see even a steel tank may need some attention. Last week I was at his shop and he had a Triumph tank cut open, it had a rather thick coating that was flaking off in spots, it was some kind of tank liner that needed to be taken out and the only way was to do it that way. With a steel tank, no need for liners and if it does leak, then welding the holes is the only way to go.

At this point, you have the choice of trying to get yours fixed or buy a new one if possible. As a cheap thinkerer, I would fix the fibreglass one and see how it goes, adding a few layers of cloth and epoxy resin may just work for the time being and possibly for a long time in the future.

Jean

PS I know my café's bike only had gas in it for a couple of months, but some makes of gas will eat through the tank in one single tankful, that is what happened with my Commando Fastback with a fibreglass tank, I don't know what was in the gas (probably ethanol) but it gummed up my carb and bubbled the paint. My plan for my Commando is to turn it into a café racer and I already have an alloy tank I am planning on using, not that I am afraid of fibreglass, but because others are and a bike with a glass tank is hard if not impossible to sell.

Hello Gary,

Years ago I had a Ducati with a glass tank, it seemed that the idle jets were always in need of cleaning. Anyway I found that the fuel was making the resin soft and sticky and this sticky stuff was gumming up the carbs. Back then there was only Kreem in Aust. so I drained the tank and rinsed it with acetone, drained that and used the Kreem. never had anymore problems. (sold the SS 5 years later) Keep in mind there was no ethanole back then.

I built a TT2 which has a fibreglass tank 2 and a bit years ago.
As I was concerned about modern fuel reacting with the glass I asked a fellow I know who repaires fibreglass tanks for Bultacos etc.
He recomended Hirsch Auto Gas Tank Sealer. (I had already used POR15 and had spent weeks trying to get the rubbish out) (I found the best way to get it out was fill the tank with fuel until most of it came loose.)

His suggestion was to make sure the tank was structually sound.

Clean the tank with a good detergent and warm water, then let it dry thoroughly.

Plug the fuel tap holes with rubber bungs.

Then rinse the tank "quickly" with acetone and drain that and make sure there is no liquid acetone left.

Poor in the Hirsch as per the instructions on the tin.

This is the tank I did using Hirsch a little over 2 years ago. Fuel has been in it for over 2 years.
The Hirsch even covered the little bits of POR15 I couldn't get to.



If you need to do any repaires to the tank there are resins available that will handle fuel better than polyester resin, poly vinyl, I think. (dont quote me on the poly vinyl bit)

But a good glass suplier will tell you.

Oh, and don't get any sealer or acetone on your paint, you can wipe vasoline or grease over the outside just in case "Murphey" is about.

Hope this helps,

Regards Graeme.

Gary said:

Actually, if someone can direct me to anyplace that sells steel interstate tanks, I guess I'd prefer that. Get her on the road, and I'd love to take her over to my father's gravesite, and 'project' that I just gave him a big smile (hmm, sounds weird, but if you'd known my Dad you'd understand).

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eBay is the best source. Expect to pay about $600 for a good one. There are repro Roadster tanks being made in Pakastan but I don't thing anyone is making new Interstate tanks yet.

Thanks, Dave (and everyone else, too).

GRM:
How old (i.e. year of manufacture) was/is the fiberglass tank you did about 2 years ago with Hirsch???
Have you been running ethanol fuel through the tank???

I'm starting to think that, whatever I use, I'd best drain all fuel from the tank (even after coating it) every time I don't runaround on it. You know, keep minimal fuel in it, and if I'm not going to use the bike for 3-4 days... drain the fuel out, pop the filler cap, let the thing dry out...

There must be a better way.
I'm intrigued with some comments about "modern" fiberglass, and it's not being poly... but the posters seem a little (possibly?) confused, because using epoxy and resin IS ***NOT*** fiberglass. All that stuff is, is epoxy, and also the resin. Almost suspect when those two products are referred to as fiberglass, when they, indeed, are NOT.

Which is why I always ask people to 'overkill' the explanation, or what they are typing, as THEY know what they mean... but we, the readers, do not. One example above mentioned epoxy/resin on the interior of his tank... but then didn't mention if he'd used 'glass or not. At least, I don't think. I'll have to go back and re-read it, probably I missed it.

Jean, and all who mentioned possibilities of better 'modern' fiberglass, improved resin, improved epoxy: I'll mix a batch up soon and, using saturated CLOTH under the resin/epoxy, I'll make, then fill a container with fuel, let it sit an extended time and let you guys know how that went. Maybe that AND Hirsch over it?

I'm intrigued with some comments about "modern" fiberglass, and it's not being poly... but the posters seem a little (possibly?) confused, because using epoxy and resin IS ***NOT*** fiberglass. All that stuff is, is epoxy, and also the resin. Almost suspect when those two products are referred to as fiberglass, when they, indeed, are NOT.

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I'm a little confused by your statement. First of all we all use the term fiberglass as a shortcut. The official terms are FRP or GRP which stands for fiberglass reinforced polymer or glass reinforced polymer. The polymer is the resin which chemically is usually polyester, but can be epoxy or vinyl ester or even acrylic. It is the polymeric resin that provides the chemical resistance and shape while the glass fiber provides strength.

I think maybe we are saying the same thing but in a different way?

Hi Gary,
The tank in question is about 3 years old.
It was made using polyester resin and glass matting, the random glass not the woven matt like surfboards are made from.
It was then lined with a vinyl ester resin to give it some protection from being attacked by the fuel.
Then I needed to alter it to make it fit the frame etc.
this is when I used POR15 as the alterations I did were done with ordinary polyester resin and random glass fibre .
Then the POR15 come loose after a couple of weeks.
Then I used the Hirsch as described above, this was over 2 years ago and all is still good.

Note, the tank definatly became sticky when the POR15 came away from the inside.
The fuel, which has been in the tank continuously for 2 years, is mostly BP 98 (premium)

Have you heard of osmosis in fibreglass boats? I can't see why a fuel tank can't suffer the same problem if it isn't made properley, or sealed from the unknown chemicals in modern fuels.

This works for me and I'm happy with the results so for. A litre of acetone and 500 ml Hirsch = $60 approx

graeme

Of course no fibreglass tank is as good as a steel tank.

graeme.

GRAEME: oh! The tank in question is only three (3) years old? Crap, I'd hoped it was at least a 35 year old fiberglass Norton tank. Ah... wait. That means that you sealed it only a year after it was manufactured? (I think something got lost in translation, sorry).

RON: maybe not. Please rest assured that if there's any confusion here (now and forever more, lol's) it'll be because of me, not you. I sail a lot in my 'other' life, so use fiberglass, epoxy and also resin. However, I'm no expert, don't claim to be. Sounds like you've got it down. It may well be because I read things 'literally'. Which is why I tend to 'overkill' my explanations, and wish others did, too, in order to alleviate possible misunderstandings.

Anyway, I apologize to everyone in advance, in case I am wrong, or confusing at any future date.

Right now, I'm off to read the 'tech' section of this site on how to post some pics. I want to decisively identify this failed gas tank liner in my Dad's tank (definatively) so any future readers can SEE the proof, and not buy whatever that product turns out to be.

(ADDED EDIT) ok, so photobucket sucks. I must have done, or typed, something wrong and now no matter what I do, it simply tells me that I am "Inelegible" to create an account. What a PITA.

Gary, the reason I used Hirsch was it was recomended by a fellow who repaires old Bultaco fibreglass tanks.

Make no mistake, I get no kickback from Hirsch for saying this. Just my own experience and his recomendation.

The sealer that is in your tank, POR15 is a silver grey colour, looks a bit like silver silicone. It is quite thick.
If the liner has been there for a while and is still sound, and had fuel in it, it's probably not POR 15.

graeme.