Fullauto Technologies heads

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84ok said:
something else to consider - gb = gearbox


the original cases are also known to be weak
https://www.accessnorton.com/NortonCommando/maney-gearbox-outrigger-bearing-help-please.16689/

https://www.accessnorton.com/Norton...rigger-bearing-help-please.16689/#post-243668

https://www.accessnorton.com/Norton...-bearing-help-please.16689/page-4#post-243731
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If you are curious, My Goldstar drive side case has a worn bearing hole. There is a place locally that sprays in aluminum and then machines the hole for the correct interference fit to the ball bearing. $300. The big headache is holding and positioning the case for machining. It is only about .002 interference fit. Currently the bearing falls out of the case when cold. When the case heats up to operating temp I think it would rattle in its bore.
 
MAtt CNW

While I am not exactly sure what John is planning to do as far as heads and barrels and who will sell them, getting wholesalers into the mix will typically force a higher retail price. In other words, put a middleman in there and the margins will have to be longer and that will mean that the consumer pays. For a wholesaler to go in and invest in a good size inventory, they will demand a price that will allow then to in turn sell it to the smaller shops that just need one or two but still wants to have a cushion to work with.

Fact is, the Commando market is only so big and it's not a growing market either. While I definitely think more heads will sell if the price ends up where John wants it to be, it is still somewhat limited. By having a few retailers in every market, this will allow plenty of supply and ensure that the price can be kept reasonable and customers can choose who to buy them from. Add wholesalers and there will be no additional value but the price will definitely go up

If a shop that will only by one or two per year, wants one, they can get one at retail and since the head still needs to be built, that's where they can get some income to make sense out of offering it. Typically in our industry, it's the end customer that wants a certain product. In other words, if Bob drops his bike off to get worked on at a shop, he will let them know he wants a Fullauto head.....it's not necessarily the shop 'selling' him on the idea to get one. These days with the internet as powerful as it is, consumers are typically well informed about what is available. In a specialized market like ours, even more so.

I have to agree with what has been said before, that this is really a great time to own these Commandos since there are more and more great parts becoming available. When larger high quality manufacturers like Johns STS enter the market, its something that benefits all of us. Also worth mentioning is that while not everyone will be ready to put down 2K for a new head, the fact they they are available will also put more used product back on the market so those that want to spend less will have more to choose from as well.

Matt




Matt this statement could also be seen as a retailer protecting his own business

John has already shown his thoughts noting some products are often marked up too much by dealers by a factor of 3-5 times the actual cost

if wholesalers were sitting on inventory which has been bulk ordered to help facilitate production and reduce manufacturing costs , independent dealers can then order for next day delivery from a wholesaler and work for slimmer margins as there is no investment in stock by the retailer it works both ways some one has to commit to order production ?

if i were a manufacturer i would have a structured price where retailers would pay a premium over a wholesale cost +30- 35 % for ordering in small volume
this would ensure i got a more paletable margin for facilitating smaller orders , by limiting your number of stockists to a few retailers you also limit market penetration and increase costs

Economical Shipping U.S.A to the Uk / Europe would need a player with deeper pockets to step up and order quantiy
 
cliffa said:
G81 Can Cycle, please, please, in future drip feed all this good news as my RSI is coming back from repeatedly clicking "Like"

But seriously, folks like yourself are to be applauded. Us Commando owners are blessed to have such support. I mean which other classic brit bike owner can choose from TWO electric starters (for example)?

Cheers,

cliffa.
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Vincent owners.
 
I hope John doesn’t manufacture his heads and barrels in the batch sizes being discussed here with regards to global distributors etc.

Thats a recipe for disaster. Imagine having hundreds of heads in stock, then finding there was an issue with porosity, or similar.

It also vastly limits the variants that could be produced cost effectively.

It would be far more cost effective (in terms of total cost) to look at more flexible machines, more flexible workers and ‘quick change over’ techniques to allow small batches to be built in line with market demands.

This gives the greatest flexibility, the lowest capital employed, the shortest ‘feedback loops’ and allows greater degrees of customer oriented variation.

It’s not rocket science, it’s not even new, but it’s well proven, it’s what allowed Toyota to wipe the floor with the big 3 ...
 
Frankie17 said:
MAtt CNW

While I am not exactly sure what John is planning to do as far as heads and barrels and who will sell them, getting wholesalers into the mix will typically force a higher retail price. In other words, put a middleman in there and the margins will have to be longer and that will mean that the consumer pays. For a wholesaler to go in and invest in a good size inventory, they will demand a price that will allow then to in turn sell it to the smaller shops that just need one or two but still wants to have a cushion to work with.

Fact is, the Commando market is only so big and it's not a growing market either. While I definitely think more heads will sell if the price ends up where John wants it to be, it is still somewhat limited. By having a few retailers in every market, this will allow plenty of supply and ensure that the price can be kept reasonable and customers can choose who to buy them from. Add wholesalers and there will be no additional value but the price will definitely go up

If a shop that will only by one or two per year, wants one, they can get one at retail and since the head still needs to be built, that's where they can get some income to make sense out of offering it. Typically in our industry, it's the end customer that wants a certain product. In other words, if Bob drops his bike off to get worked on at a shop, he will let them know he wants a Fullauto head.....it's not necessarily the shop 'selling' him on the idea to get one. These days with the internet as powerful as it is, consumers are typically well informed about what is available. In a specialized market like ours, even more so.

I have to agree with what has been said before, that this is really a great time to own these Commandos since there are more and more great parts becoming available. When larger high quality manufacturers like Johns STS enter the market, its something that benefits all of us. Also worth mentioning is that while not everyone will be ready to put down 2K for a new head, the fact they they are available will also put more used product back on the market so those that want to spend less will have more to choose from as well.

Matt




Matt this statement could also be seen as a retailer protecting his own business

John has already shown his thoughts noting some products are often marked up too much by dealers by a factor of 3-5 times the actual cost

if wholesalers were sitting on inventory which has been bulk ordered to help facilitate production and reduce manufacturing costs , independent dealers can then order for next day delivery from a wholesaler and work for slimmer margins as there is no investment in stock by the retailer it works both ways some one has to commit to order production ?

if i were a manufacturer i would have a structured price where retailers would pay a premium over a wholesale cost +30- 35 % for ordering in small volume
this would ensure i got a more paletable margin for facilitating smaller orders , by limiting your number of stockists to a few retailers you also limit market penetration and increase costs

Economical Shipping U.S.A to the Uk / Europe would need a player with deeper pockets to step up and order quantiy
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Frankie,

The 3-5 time actual cost is highly unusual and an exception rather than a norm. Believe me, if that markup was normal, there would be many more shops selling product for these old machines. This industry is known for having very tight margins and there is normally very little room to work with. As Madnorton said, 'spindle time is spindle time' and it will take a certain cost to make something, regardless if you bump the production from 50 to 200 units. It doesn't necessarily get any less expensive to make and you end up with more units that you have to move. There is an ultimate number in there somewhere and I am sure John will know what that number is after finishing up some of these new parts

Something else that is very important to look at is to ensure that the retailers are customer oriented and are willing to take the time it takes to take care of issues and problems. Many small shops are just in it for a one time sale and they may not be willing to do much past that point. So that market penetration you are talking about is also something that can cause problems if your wholesalers don't ensure that they sell to reputable shops. High quality product require high quality representation.

I can think of parts that were introduced on the market and that I was excited about offering. Then the market got saturated and these parts were starting to get discounted by shops that didn't care about a long term commitment with manufacturers and/or customers. This to a point where it wasn't worth my time or expense to stock them.

I want to be clear that I am all for pricing this new head (and barrel) aggressively. It will broaden the base that will consider buying one. I am sure there will be enough places to buy these products both in the US and the rest of the world.

Matt
 
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Thanks Matt. I’m in a different business entirely (law) but if the first customer question is about pricing, the relationship will usually not be satisfactory to either. As end users we should value your and other good vendors’ experience and be willing to pay for it.
 
Eddie

we are not talking multi hundereds of Heads and barrells batches of 50-100

if you consider unit cost of a head $2000 retail even if the dealer gets 50 % off to order 10 heads is 10K investment plus any shipping

Dealers would need very deep pockets to be stockists , bear in mind most of the old school dealers are now looking at retierment stratergys and reducing inventory not investment

matts comment regarding a specialist network to supply high end products would work in the perfect world but these specialists are dissapearing and long term it would limit the ability to re manufacture repeat batches , if one dealer sells out he will be waiting for others to place orders on the manufacturer ,so it will become a feast or famine product and inevitably prices will rise
dealers with shelf stock will not give it away when they have the monopoly

Norton specialists are a dying breed and there is no new blood looking to fill the void and major in Norton parts marketentry has been made difficult by some suppliers refusing to supply
RGM and Norvil have ploughed their own furrow now making many of thier own parts as AN chose to cut off the dealer network

prices of machines will continue to rise as a result of increased spares costs and at some point in the near future due to market prices or average age of the riders ,normal folks will loose interest in Commandos and they will like many Vincents become interior decorations for Bankers and stock market traders
 
Frankie17 said:
Norton specialists are a dying breed and there is no new blood looking to fill the void and major in Norton parts marketentry has been made difficult by some suppliers refusing to supply
RGM and Norvil have ploughed their own furrow now making many of thier own parts as AN chose to cut off the dealer network
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Err, we still supply RGM, and many others globally - some since the days AN was born, we have two picker packers whose sole full time job is trade orders. Resilience that has existed in AN since 1977 is being improved, I am not going anywhere for the time being, and nor is anyone else as far as I know, and we are still recruiting and expanding - watch this space. For us here at ANIL, the next 6 months will be pretty busy.

Our big problem the last time the heads were available was getting hold of enough, we were and still are prepared to hold a considerable amount of cylinder heads.

If you, or anyone else, are nearby then feel free to come in and ask questions over a cup of tea. I would gladly explain and prove the margin on the batches we had in the past, the multipliers stated above though may not relate to the heads, for the FA cylinders mamufactured in the past they are hugely overstated.
 
Madnorton

AN may still supply RGM and many others but have no stockists listed ?

i would quess this parts supply will be limited to AN Unique line items that are difficult or not economically viable to re manufacture as you already have tooling in place
if AN dealer margins are slim they will still buy from AN only on a as and when required basis to complement thier own range

look at all the Norton line items with any volume attached and dealers make / source thier own products from elswhere

your comment about past supply of Full Auto heads getting hold of enough feast or famine batch manufacture will still exist if new owners are reliant on a limited number specialist Norton parts stockist to make up production runs
 
cliffa said:
ericg, I didn’t know that. Who make them?

( don’t want to derail this thread though)

Cheers,

cliffa.
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François Grosset, Bob Dunn, Hervé Hamon, Vincent Parts Germany and I think Patrick Godet used to fit the Grosset kit but in the end he developed his own ES for some non-technical reasons. That makes 5 different kits and this is not an exhaustive list, just the ones I know. The Grosset kit seems to be the most popular.
Cheers.
 
CanukNortonNut said:
Look for a foundry far far away from solar power subsidies and wind turbines. To hell with grEtta and her How dare you ...she should have sailed to china to parade her movement.
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How dare you ? I'm a big fan of Gretta , she has vision .
Likely never heard of Norton though...
 
ericg said:
François Grosset, Bob Dunn, Hervé Hamon, Vincent Parts Germany and I think Patrick Godet used to fit the Grosset kit but in the end he developed his own ES for some non-technical reasons. That makes 5 different kits and this is not an exhaustive list, just the ones I know. The Grosset kit seems to be the most popular.
Cheers.
Click to expand...

The Patrick Godet version turns over a 1330cc twin with 10:1 cr and NO decompressors, as if it were child’s play...
 
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