Fullauto Technologies cylinder heads

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A friend of mine recently died of a heart attack at age 55. Before he died, he was trying to sell a very clean late model 850cc Ducati for about $8000, and could not move it. With a Commando, you have something you can rebuild yourself, so that might make it more valuable. The $5000 bill for repair of any Ducati motor might be a deterrent ?
 
That would be $5000 if you could re-build, as many are finding out the spares situation with late model Ducati's is dire. Some 7 year old models are now no longer repairable as the new parts are not easily found or supplied from Ducati. One Ducati dealership owner in the US was so fed up he decided to get an old Norton Commando that he reluctantly acquired, running - he was surprised to find he could still get so many parts.

Anyway A$5000 is not far from what a Commando engine re-build would cost here in the UK by one of the more reputable builders.
 
The fact that Harleys are able to be easily rebuilt is one of the reasons people like them. I really like Ducatis, but they are like bloody Ferraris - who can afford them ? With a Ferrari, you send the motor back to Modena.
 
acotrel said:
The fact that Harleys are able to be easily rebuilt is one of the reasons people like them. I really like Ducatis, but they are like bloody Ferraris - who can afford them ? With a Ferrari, you send the motor back to Modena.

While Ducati motors do run to tighter tolerances than a Norton (really, what does not?) they are not that difficult to do, as long as you dont have to shim from scratch. If you keep the shims in the same place you can _usually_ get away with reusing them.
The problems start when replacing gearbox bits or the cam bevel gears or bearings, but it can be done. Just not overnight on your first attempt :)

Perhaps it's more of a problem thatt he spares can be horribly expensive, in part at least because of the number of people who want perfect restorations, mostly for show only. Check the price for a genuine headlight for a 750 Sport or SS for example - they go for upwards of $1500, just for the glass unit...

/Steve.
 
All I know is that my friend who had a business working on Ducatis said ' No bill I ever write is for less than $5000'. He used to pull the motor apart in front of the owners, so they could see the damage before he started work on it. Most of the problems came from guys who tried to fix it themselves. At least with a commando you can remain asleep while you fix it.
 
acotrel said:
All I know is that my friend who had a business working on Ducatis said ' No bill I ever write is for less than $5000'. He used to pull the motor apart in front of the owners, so they could see the damage before he started work on it. Most of the problems came from guys who tried to fix it themselves. At least with a commando you can remain asleep while you fix it.

We do seem to have gotten off topic a bit, but I can't resist addressing the myth that Ducati's are too hard to work on, and have to go to the dealer for expensive service. I recently bought my first Ducati, a 2006 Multistrada 620, a very comfortable bike for an old guy, but still good handling and performance. I got a good price on it, partly because it was due for it's 20,000 km service, and partly because it had an oil leak (easy to fix). I got a factory service manual in the deal, and it had the receipt for the 10,000 km service tucked in it. The bill was just over $1,000. I bought all the parts (oil, filter, plugs, belts, valve shims, and some other odds and ends) for $315, and did the work myself. The 30,000 km service (if I get to that point) will be about $145 less, because it doesn't include new belts. I didn't find it any more difficult than working on a Norton, but it did take longer, mostly because the valve adjustment process is kind of tedious. As long as you're willing to read the manual and follow the procedures, and be a little organized about sorting out the valve shim sizes, it's pretty straightforward.

I made some handlebar risers to raise the bars 1" and pull them back 1", and dropped the front end a bit, and I'm very happy with the bike. No plans to mod it, just ride as my go-to bike.

Ken
 
One of our local guys does quite a bit of work on Ducatis and has an 860 himself with the fork offset modified to quicken the steering for shorter race circuits. I was in his workshop the other day when he was working on an air-cooled 500cc Ducati V-twin. It was a really lovely little racer and I'd love to own it. However there is pretty much no race class for it. It always puzzles me that our race classes are not more inclusive. It seems the organisers don't really care about getting entries. In fact my secret ambition is to get my Seeley 850 into a race where there are also 851 Ducatis because they are the same TYPE of old garbage. Nobody ever seems to race Ducatis in any class except some moderns, these days.

Sorry about going off-topic, but this is still about Commando race bikes and their possible competition. It really frustrates ne to pay $700 to go to a race meeting and find myself mid-field really only racing one or two other bikes. It racing is going to be worthwhile, the other guys need to be on the same TYPE of bike. Then if you end up in the lead, you have actually achieved something. Otherwise it is an expensive pointless exercise.
 
Doesn't a cylinder head which flows enough to deliver 80 BHP, have enlarged inlet ports and is designed to operate at very high revs ? If that is the case, the bottom end of the motor needs to be a lot stronger, and preferably the crank would short stroke, so that it spins up higher without creating extreme loads. I suspect that what you get on a flow bench, often is not an indication of what the port will do when it is operating in a motor. You are measuring gas speed through the port at sustained pressure, not when the gas in the port is resonating at the speed of sound. What someone needs to do is progressively port a head and keep fitting it to a standardised motor and measuring the torque and ultimate horsepower - establish a correlation.
What I have done to the 850 head on my bike, is the result of having made mistakes on my short-stroke 500cc Triumph which have been irreversible, and also observing what works best on Triumph 650 motors. My feeling is that once the inlet ports are enlarged much beyond standard, the gas speed within the port drops, so the mass of gas transferred might actually decrease at certain revs - you lose torque.
The name of the game is high speed flow through small ducts with modern port design. More torque everywhere not less. A lot has been learned about 2 valve ports in the last few years with much of it lateral transfer from professional V8 racing.
 
I think it's great that Ken has found someone willing to do the castings. I spent some time shopping for someone to do them in the States and couldn't even get a price quote. Most places said it was too complex for the work they do, others just gave me a blank stare when I mentioned the numbers. I'm looking forward to seeing the new castings. jim

Exactly the problem and in the UK as well
 
Exactly the problem and in the UK as well

Not really, just need to find a modern foundry, they are there just need to ask the right people as most don't advertise if they don't need to, or want visitors nosing about.
 
Not really, just need to find a modern foundry, they are there just need to ask the right people as most don't advertise if they don't need to, or want visitors nosing about.

This discussion is rather meaningless. There is no shortage of competent foundries or machine shops. For small volumes and cost sensitive production, smaller companies having the desired expertise and experience is easily found, and they need to be within a reasonable distance from each other.

To re-start FA head manufacture, a lot more than "just need to find a modern foundry" is required. The main issues are manpower, organization, capital and marketing. Please discuss what the problem is, not what isn't. Preferably, include how can YOU contribute to finding a solution.

-Knut
 
In this months Real Classic Norvil are advertising new heads, made in Stoke. Not sure to believe this without seeing some in the flesh. Has anybody seen one?
 
In this months Real Classic Norvil are advertising new heads, made in Stoke. Not sure to believe this without seeing some in the flesh. Has anybody seen one?
I'd be very careful buying one from them, very careful
In this months Real Classic Norvil are advertising new heads, made in Stoke. Not sure to believe this without seeing some in the flesh. Has anybody seen one?
God knows what he would send you if you bought one
 
Thanks for the warning Baz, but firstly I've been around Nortons for long enough to know about Mr Emery & his ways. Secondly, I have a Comtock modified Fullauto on my 920. I am merely curious as to whether these heads are really newly machined from fresh castings.
 
Thanks for the warning Baz, but firstly I've been around Nortons for long enough to know about Mr Emery & his ways. Secondly, I have a Comtock modified Fullauto on my 920. I am merely curious as to whether these heads are really newly machined from fresh castings.

No.
 
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