Engine/ Frame Numbers (2005)
- Thread starter Neil
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I have been contacted many times in regards to offer my opinion on identification and possible fraud and counterfeit detection.
I will again offer these definitions for commando .
(NORTON) vin traditional 6 digit on the VIN plate/early VIN on the frame neck, alternate locations on NON production bike like PR are a possible exception
NORTON engine # usually the vin plus a 20m3 or 20m3S prefix on pre 200000. After that the engine # is the "same" as the NORTON VIN.
The commando gearbox uses the 6 digit NORTON VIN.
Frame batch number is the stamped "frame" number on 73-75 frame neck---ocassionally used by government agencies in lieu of the real NORTON VIN.
We peasants usually must comply with local law for road tax and licensing requirements and the "governments" form of ownership certification. This ocassionally makes the "frame batch number" into the "government" vin, again it is not the original traditional "NORTON" vin. The frame batch number would never be on the NORTON VIN plate, if so I would suspect fraud.
On the later 75 bikes, I have documented the later "FRAME BATCH NUMBER" morphed to include the "NORTON VIN" as part of the frame batch number therefore dropping the original 850F125000 sequence.
Earlier bikes used letters for the month (jul) and the year is 4 digit (1972) While the NORTON VIN is much more consistantly in the VIN block, the date is often upside down and or not in the space allocated on the plate.
It seems clear that 73 thru 75 850 used numeric month and the year was only 2 digit on the NORTON VIN plate.
You would do well to compartmentalize government ownership/licensing totally separate from proper street level norton identification and for detection and exposure of fraud.
IMO using one to justify the other is a fools mission.
"Is there no frame/chassis number recorded on the ownership document?
F111966 (or 111966) or the (missing) plate number 319265 can be the 'frame' number."
John
Your bike has been legitimized by the NZ government with their own #. It certainly has a troubling history due to the lack of the NORTON VIN plate. Only the present engine and frame number and factory records might show them as a correct pair of numbers. Whether your bike was a crashed reconstructed bitza (mismatched numbers) or the plate was sold out of country may never be known.
For this kind of reason, I highly requested VMCC NOT make the company records wholesale released for world wide use especially by bad actors.
I will again offer these definitions for commando .
(NORTON) vin traditional 6 digit on the VIN plate/early VIN on the frame neck, alternate locations on NON production bike like PR are a possible exception
NORTON engine # usually the vin plus a 20m3 or 20m3S prefix on pre 200000. After that the engine # is the "same" as the NORTON VIN.
The commando gearbox uses the 6 digit NORTON VIN.
Frame batch number is the stamped "frame" number on 73-75 frame neck---ocassionally used by government agencies in lieu of the real NORTON VIN.
We peasants usually must comply with local law for road tax and licensing requirements and the "governments" form of ownership certification. This ocassionally makes the "frame batch number" into the "government" vin, again it is not the original traditional "NORTON" vin. The frame batch number would never be on the NORTON VIN plate, if so I would suspect fraud.
On the later 75 bikes, I have documented the later "FRAME BATCH NUMBER" morphed to include the "NORTON VIN" as part of the frame batch number therefore dropping the original 850F125000 sequence.
Earlier bikes used letters for the month (jul) and the year is 4 digit (1972) While the NORTON VIN is much more consistantly in the VIN block, the date is often upside down and or not in the space allocated on the plate.
It seems clear that 73 thru 75 850 used numeric month and the year was only 2 digit on the NORTON VIN plate.
You would do well to compartmentalize government ownership/licensing totally separate from proper street level norton identification and for detection and exposure of fraud.
IMO using one to justify the other is a fools mission.
"Is there no frame/chassis number recorded on the ownership document?
F111966 (or 111966) or the (missing) plate number 319265 can be the 'frame' number."
John
Your bike has been legitimized by the NZ government with their own #. It certainly has a troubling history due to the lack of the NORTON VIN plate. Only the present engine and frame number and factory records might show them as a correct pair of numbers. Whether your bike was a crashed reconstructed bitza (mismatched numbers) or the plate was sold out of country may never be known.
For this kind of reason, I highly requested VMCC NOT make the company records wholesale released for world wide use especially by bad actors.
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In addition to the frame 'F' number, several of our 850 owning members have also reported finding a 5-digit number on the headstock ranging from 00100 being the lowest up to the highest reported to date of 00143 by 850 Mk3.
https://www.accessnorton.com/NortonCommando/owners-with-1973-850s-look-for-number-00104.18967/
https://www.accessnorton.com/NortonCommando/owners-with-1973-850s-look-for-number-00104.18967/
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These stamped numbers of seemingly 73 and up frames, may have been additionally numbered by renold. Spray? has stated they "reworked " verluchi frames. These may be their rework job numbers?
It would be interesting to verify if they are metric frames from verluchi.
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Ken Sprayson of Reynolds?
However, I think these numbers appear too frequently to be "rework" numbers and I've had my suspicions for some time they are Norton/Verlicchi frame batch numbers.
(If I remember correctly, Ken Sprayson did eventually admit in a magazine interview that the number of Verlicchi frames reworked by Reynolds had been somewhat exaggerated!)
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johnm
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Thanks for this. I shall see if I can find the ownership papers again. I have been overseas for 7 years and trying to reassemble everything again out of storage.
johnm
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Hi Dave,
Thanks for this. I definitely agree on keeping the Govt and the Norton systems separate. I was fine about the bike 40 years ago when I first bought it but as I learnt more over the years I became concerned about the missing ID plate. But the first owner did race it and it had the engine plates welded together with a plate under the gearbox - the main stand was missing. As a student I didnt realise this was not standard until I tried to fit a main stand which was actually impossible with the welded in plate in place. So the race history could explain the parts mix. Certainly the second owner was fine. He is a university professor and I have known him since uni days. He has three Commandos at present including a CNW build.
johnm
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Thanks
I contacted them and they said they didn't have much on file for my number. But said I could pay UK 20 pounds to find out what ;-)
So maybe not
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