Frame Number (2019)

Status
Not open for further replies.
S

Stephen Munton

Joined
Jun 29, 2019
Messages
32
Hello Guys

I have been hearing conflicting things in regards to frame numbers on the Commando frame. I have been told all frames were stamped but not sure where. I know my machine is missing the headstock plate but some have said the frame was stamped near the headstock on the R side........ I have gone over this frame like no tomorrow and for the life of me cant find any numbers at all. The frame is powder coated but i would expect to still see some feint numbers etc even under the powder coat. Any other ideas at all guys
 
Stephen Munton said:
I know my machine is missing the headstock plate but some have said the frame was stamped near the headstock on the R side........ I
Click to expand...

It was 850 models from around mid '73-on that had the additional frame stamp as well as the headstock plate stamp.

Your Commando is a '71 750 so doesn't have it.
 
You can purchase blank frame plates and even the round head rivets that hammer in. You will need to get the month/year of build from one of the sources of factory records then stamp it or get someone to stamp it. Make sure to get the correct plate for 1971.
 
Thanks gents i contacted some one in England and they apparently have all the Norton Records. I gave them the ?year and engine number but was told they need a frame number to assist them further and of course a small fee would be required to obtain the information
 
NOC have the earlier records and if you are a member I believe providing manufacturing date is free. Andover Norton have the later ones. Others on here have far more knowledge in this than I though.

Appreciate you're not in the UK but here our registration document lists the frame. I guess not over there?

BTW - I didn't realise the frame may be stamped as well. Still trying to work out origins of my bike, can someone confirm where the stamped number might be?

Thanks.
 
AN also have the earlier records, just like the NOC, and some of the Commando Factory records which the NOC don't have - different to registration records. Simon can sometimes even find the ship the bike left the UK on, as occasionally seen in the news letter we send out.
 
Gadge said:
BTW - I didn't realise the frame may be stamped as well. Still trying to work out origins of my bike, can someone confirm where the stamped number might be?
Click to expand...

Usually on the RH side of the headstock and stamped similar to the example below.
Note that it is usually a non-matching 'F1xxxxx' number.

Frame Number (2019)


(Late 850 Mk3s often have a matching number without the 'F' see dynodave link below, for more information).

http://atlanticgreen.com/commandoframes.htm
 
Madnorton said:
AN also have the earlier records, just like the NOC, and some of the Commando Factory records which the NOC don't have - different to registration records. Simon can sometimes even find the ship the bike left the UK on, as occasionally seen in the news letter we send out.
Click to expand...
Can i as who AN NOC is mate thanks
 
L.A.B. said:
Usually on the RH side of the headstock and stamped similar to the example below.
Note that it is usually a non-matching 'F1xxxxx' number.

Frame Number (2019)


(Late 850 Mk3s often have a matching number without the 'F' see dynodave link below, for more information).

http://atlanticgreen.com/commandoframes.htm
Click to expand...

Lab i have looked there and cant see any indentations etc where numbers might be.......even with powdercoat on the frame you would expect to see some minor imperfections etc. Great reference picture by the way mate
 
Stephen Munton said:
Lab i have looked there and cant see any indentations etc where numbers might be.......even with powdercoat on the frame you would expect to see some minor imperfections etc. Great reference picture by the way mate
Click to expand...

Well, as I already stated, a 1971 750 model won't have that number.
 
L.A.B. said:
Well, as I already stated, a 1971 750 model won't have that number.
Click to expand...
Sorry if i offended mate not the intention i was pointing out that no evidence exists to show me there is a number plus I was told adamantly by someone there would be a frame number.......I had asked on another page or business email and the i get told they have no frame number so hence my confusion
 
I own 22 norton and have studied, starting in 1988, many hundreds of the ID/VIN plates and post WW2 frame stampings .
Norton factory make the VIN but government agencies collect taxes and frequently misidentify the VIN.
So forget govt paperwork when talking to another norton owner to identify your bike.

"I have been told all frames were stamped"
No credibility!

"some have said the frame was stamped near the headstock on the R side"
some should have said SOME (series) of the frames were stamped near the headstock on the R side
There are other minor variants of frame stamping

"I was told adamantly by someone there would be a frame number"
Again no credibility

Since WW2 and before, all production norton have a VIN vehicle Identification number.
The commando, except for the very early 68 had a VIN plate rivited to the neck(JPN excluded), though the vin plate it had a different name in the IPL. That continued to the end with the 75 model including the "late release" 75's.
The unfortunate fact is the replaceable aluminum plate facilitates confusion and more recently fradulent counterfeit bikes.

All the NOC/AN/ or the British VMCC "records" will show "A" bike did exist, but retagging a bike dies not prove it was "that" bike shown in the records. I am seeing an increasing number of retagged commandos that are of questionable validity.
 
Last edited:
If AN has the record, simply order the plate and ask them to stamp it - they don't charge to stamp them. You already know what serial number you want, you just need a date. The records AN has vary in detail, and sometimes the date on the plate does not match the records exactly. For instance, I have one that is 3 months before it "came off the assembly line" (don't remember he exact term and I'm away from the record right now). My guess is that it was finished, had a problem and when back in the queue.

Many have no frame number stamped into the metal of the frame. Some people mistake the part number stamped into the tank mount as a VIN. Also, in the US, when a bike was imported and titled, there's no telling what was used. Most used the number on the engine which originally matched the VIN tag on the headstock. But some used any number they could find on the frame and most used the date of import for the model year. Generally speaking, if there is a number stamped into the frame, it does not match the engine/gearbox number - yes, some do match, but best I can tell, it's very few before May 1975.

AN doesn't have many 850 records, but usually when they do, the engine and frame numbers are listed and they do not match on the records I have.

Look here for more info: http://www.gregmarsh.com/MC/Norton/CommandoID.aspx
 
Last spring at the 40th British motorcycle meet, I met with one of the two historic records keepers of the VMCC?
They had been contemplating posting the whole norton records public/ "on-line". He asked my view on this topic which, I of course said, after a long discussion, it was a very bad idea. He agreed.

So now marshg says AN will give you a new plate stamped, You already know what serial number you want.

The NOC required me to send a frame rubbing (prove you have the bike) and pix of frame and # and engine and # before they would confirm factory records report to me.

How many ebay norton with powder coated frames and new VIN tags are frauds. I would rather buy a bike/frame with a nasty original VIN plate or only if a new plate, you get the original vin tag along with it.
Also a lot of the commando frames have the renolds mfg date stamped on the LH gusset under the Z plate. That date of course ALWAYS precedes the bike date.
 
Last edited:
So now marshg says AN will give you a new plate stamped, You already know what serial number you want.
Click to expand...

You have to tell them the number and he knows the number since he has the bike!

Fraud is a strong word for a replacement plate on a frame with no number! The majority of the records have no frame number and the majority of the frames have no number. In other words, the frame is nothing more than a part. This is not always the case. I'm rebuilding an 850 right now. The AN record for it does include the frame number. So, I used that frame even though I had a better frame with no engine. I always replace the vin plate, and I always keep the original plate to go with the bike but even if I didn't there's no fraud. The 72 I recently finished was wrecked in 1976 and was rebuilt using a donor bike. I have both frames - neither has a number stamped into it. That bike also has two engines with the same number - the PO, when rebuilding ground off the number and stamped his original number in the engine - for that reason, both sets of cases will go with the bike when I sell it.


I certainly would not have detailed it here: http://www.gregmarsh.com/MC/Norton/NortonHome.aspx and here: http://www.gregmarsh.com/MC/Norton/Norton_1972.aspx if committing fraud.
 
Last edited:
The NOC required me to send a frame rubbing (prove you have the bike) and pix of frame and # and engine and # before they would confirm factory records report to me.
Click to expand...

My guess is that they want all that because their report can be useful in the UK to get a bike registered.

The report is useless in most (probably all) states in the US except as a matter of interest. Why should they care if I want all the records or if I want to order a record for a bike I'm considering buying? I order the record from AN for every bike I rebuild - just because I want it. It's really a silly expenditure!

The AN record is just the line from the production records (at least all that I've received). I'm sure those wouldn't even be useful in the UK for registration.
 
I just read your reply that included the ‘72 build , real nice detailed write up .... kinda nice the ‘72 turned out a prize winner as well !
Good on you !
 
Greg
Not really talking specifically about you or your "projects"
however:
"the frame is nothing more than a part"

I will ask the state police here what they think of that concept... strip the vin tag off a legal motor vehicle to put on a different motor vehicle. Completeness of the bike aside...
Here in mass, titleing the frame only is exactly the same as a complete restored show bike. Been there, done that, with my BSA rocket gold star.
No title...can't register or drive it. Technically you don't own it except as a pile of salvage parts.
Of course MASS is no prize, especially my town where no one can keep any unregistered, uninsured, uninspected motor vehicle on their property unless stored inside a taxed permanent structure. That's one of the reasons I'm trying to leave this town and massachusetts.

My inquiry to NOC was to verify what I was told by the prior owner that the bike was initially sold to Dunstall dealership which NOC did verify...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top