cyrogenic tempering

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hello All.

I read here somewhere a post by hobot something about cyrogenic tempering. it has left me a little confused. why cyrogenic tempering, and what are the advantages of this.

my logic goes like this, given that multi national bearing companies spend millions on research and development, and bearings can already be obtained with a special heat treatment for higher than normal operating temperatures, why would an end user stuff around doing something that the manufacturer does not.

my very limited understanding of this process is that it is used to dimensionally stabilise certain grades of very special steel. this steel, is used in special applications such as gauge blocks, measuring standards and other very precise applications.

hobot, please enlighten me on the whole subject and it's application to Norton main bearings. what special properties does cyrogenic tempering give to bearing steel used in Norton applications
best wishes
Bradley
 
You might be on wild goose (Hobot) chase Brad. Not much hope of finding cryogeniclly treated bearings availble for a Norton. Maybe the Mars rover has them. Just buy good quality spec bearings and use good oil.
 
B.Rad, I first tried the cryo out on my chain saws to be pleasantly surprised they retrain their tension and their chip throwing edges for a full size oat tree 3+ tanks of gas for 6+ hp saw while prior they were just making dust by a single gas tank. I used to carry a few chains with me so could switch out on site instead of stopping to sharpen, not with a cryo'd chain one is enough to do me in on how much to load and haul by one chain holding up so long.

2 ft logger chipper chain run about $25 a pop and cost me $6 a chain to freeze + shipping to find its very cost effective both in labor to sharpen and the lasting teeth compared to un cryo'd chain. No one but no one has rev'd a Commando higher than Ms Peel and survived to ride couple 1000 mile further with crank that bent but didn't break and over time reduced its off centering on DS 1/16" to under 1/32" all by its cryo'd self healing. I am sold down the river on the benefits of nitrogen - 300'F processing and may do some of next Peels stuff at the even lower gas temps now available.

There are dyno tests that show more power i assume by less friction do to less thermal distortion and surface toughness and thermal conductivity. I send in bearings and bushs and even Al parts as the temps get so low its like internal shot peening compressing from surface to the core of Alloy stuff even though its no ferric content that is easy to understand the cold process helping.

BEWARE do not send anything that not completely disassemble to its raw single alloy state d/t the thermal contraction material differences at these low temps.
Peel's CHO Al head squeezed its valve seats completely out, which lead to a couple year long saga to get it back so in mean time put on standard small port head that woke up Peel power beyond belief of me and contesters. its all computer controlled so main thing is find shop near ya to save shipping. I wire small parts to a piece of wood and tiny mixed fasteners inside screen cage. Anything that can't take 350'F on the slow heating stress relief cycle will end up in a puddle. Paper is ok as combusts at 451'F but stuff wrapped in heavy paper are somewhat insulated from the temps changing, which must be 1'F per min or thermal shock can distort or fracture.

cyrogenic tempering


The Norton Commander crank was in crisis failure mode of fractured bearing and crank with the most advanced alloys available until they tried the cryo tempering that solved it and production began.

Some of the detail developments are interesting to recall. For example, it was found that the forged steel rotor shaft journal diameters, which are casehardened, grew in diameter during the first few hours of use due to the high temperatures developed in these early engines. It was only after a cryogenic treatment was introduced into the production process that this problem was overcome.
http://www.nortonownersclub.org/history/rotary

Realize I have to put up with a whole lot of flake from ignorant opinions even the current group that owns the Rotary when I brought cryo crank subject up to them they said they had one of the best laughs off a private inquiry ever. Wait till they make new cranks w/o the cryo so last laugh may be mine again. I didn't show them this history, so if ya ping them about hobot and cryo cranks enjoy their reaction then send them this as i didn't want to break their smug mood.

Remember it was NASA that put cryo temper on the map not hobot claims. Oh my just realized I need to send in plugs too and HT leads and tires and brake and clutch pads and chains and my target .22 barrel too and big fasteners, all the tranny stuff but its does absolutely nothing to the zinc based pot metal of Amals so don't waster money on them as I did to learn scope of application.

http://cryopro.com/engine/index.html
cyrogenic tempering


http://www.cdpautomachine.com/ecatalog/cryo.html
you will create more HP and torque (as measured on a DYNO) with a cryo-treated engine than the non-treated engine. (Typically up to 5% more).

http://www.recmotor.com/shop-services/c ... eating.php
cyrogenic tempering


Strengthening aluminium with cryogenics
Cryogenic tempering of aluminium and aluminium alloys will stress relieve your aluminium components and increase their load bearing capacity, making them stronger and last longer.
In addition to sporting equipment, aluminium engine components such as heads and blocks when treated cryogenically will exhibit lower warping and distortion and enhanced heat dissipation properties.
Aluminium that is to be machined will benefit from improved machineability and product finish.
http://www.cryogen.com.au/Aluminum_Tempering.htm
 
Our Steve the Hobit, is correct that cryogenic treat nent will produce a greater resistance to wear on steel ,depending upon the state the metal is in to start with....just google it!...it's interesting to say the least...well done hob!
 
There is an even lower temp than N2 gas can produce thats closer to -400'F as NASA and relatives developed, but can't find online references or shop sources yet.
Cryo plus special coatings helps for a more bullet proof build. If ya basically do a whole bike then its may be cost effective to pack it to the shop and pick up yourself.

Here's a research paper to scan through
http://www.journalamme.org/papers_vol43_1/4316.pdf
 
Brilliant! I want to be cyroginically frozen along with my Combat and thawed out 500 years in the future...firing up the old girl in the year 2550'ish would really blow some minds. I wonder if I need to freeze some gas too as there may not be any around then. :D
 
cmessenk said:
Brilliant! I want to be cyroginically frozen along with my Combat and thawed out 500 years in the future...firing up the old girl in the year 2550'ish would really blow some minds. I wonder if I need to freeze some gas too as there may not be any around then. :D


Dude... DON'T DO IT! :shock: Remember Austin Powers, someone stole his damned Mojo whilst he was froze....
 
Peel's lifters stayed intact. The 1st time I sent stuff in I put the lifter spacer tabs in a translucent photo film canister so they came back completely encased in the translucent plastic for a bit of a task to dig em out of the tough glob.

Here's a colorful fun in depth fairly short read that brought me more up to speed.
http://www.metal-wear.com/Theory.html
The change of retained austenite to martensite happens in steel and cast iron only. The same with the precipitation of fine carbides. Many metallurgists will tell you outright that changing austenite to martensite is the only thing that cryogenic processing does. They are very wrong.

We know that there must be more than this. Why? Because cryogenic processing has been shown to work on materials other than steel. Brake rotors are made of cast iron that is pearlitic in structure but scientific tests show an increase in life of two to four times. Most metals will respond to cryogenic processing. Some plastics do. There is a lot of evidence that crystals such as diamonds, cubic boron nitride, and aluminum oxide also respond.
cyrogenic tempering


Helium gets down to -450'F and as Jay Leno recommends for his Commando.
http://www.metal-wear.com/
http://www.metal-wear.com/Liquid%20Heli ... ssing.html
 
why only fifty years ? Leave a note on the freezer
" please leave the "old man" frozen, i would like to thaw it out my self" :lol:
cmessenk said:
Brilliant! I want to be cyroginically frozen along with my Combat and thawed out 500 years in the future...firing up the old girl in the year 2550'ish would really blow some minds. I wonder if I need to freeze some gas too as there may not be any around then. :D
 
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