thinking about the air temperature sensor working

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Portofino Norton's Garage

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hello, after a long way of modifications and working I'm now almost satisfied about the engine running, except the low rpm and low throttle opening that remain rough and poor.
So I'm going to test to increase the reading of the air temperature sensor in the airbox so that mixture should result enriched by the ECU feedback. Dismounting the sensor I see that:
1) it works in a very small air box volume, that's well known
2) it works very close to the tube of transmission vent for oil vapour
3) other consistent oil vapour (hopefully not liquid !) arrive in the airbox from the other bigger tube coming from the engine head; another well known issue of this Commandos

Now I'm wondering if running temperature inside that airbox is some degrees more towards the real air ambient temperature outside. If I'm not wrong this means that the ECU would almost always correct the mixture, leaning, and this could explain the very poor running at low rpm/throttle. What do you think? Some guy has tested the sensor working elsewhere to get a better real air temperature measure?
 
Your logic seems right on.
I wonder where Jap manufacturers place their airbox temp sensors?
 
If trying to measure the temp of the air which enters the engine then the airbox doees seem a good location choice, allowance is then made for any heat gain from air which has cooled the fins on the way past. Keeping oil off the sensor also seems to be desirable. My pick would be leave it where it is and deal with the oil issue so that the sensor remains clean and dry.
 
Portofino Norton's Garage said:
hello, after a long way of modifications and working I'm now almost satisfied about the engine running, except the low rpm and low throttle opening that remain rough and poor.
So I'm going to test to increase the reading of the air temperature sensor in the airbox so that mixture should result enriched by the ECU feedback. Dismounting the sensor I see that:
1) it works in a very small air box volume, that's well known
2) it works very close to the tube of transmission vent for oil vapour
3) other consistent oil vapour (hopefully not liquid !) arrive in the airbox from the other bigger tube coming from the engine head; another well known issue of this Commandos

Now I'm wondering if running temperature inside that airbox is some degrees more towards the real air ambient temperature outside. If I'm not wrong this means that the ECU would almost always correct the mixture, leaning, and this could explain the very poor running at low rpm/throttle. What do you think? Some guy has tested the sensor working elsewhere to get a better real air temperature measure?
Click to expand...
When you remove the airbox , you must run mount the airbox temp sensor elsewhere. There are some advantages to doing this , two come to mind. You no longer have to worry about water collecting in the plug socket effecting the circuit after a hard rain , and no more getting the air sensor tip coated with oil from the breather. I have not had any negative issues from making this change what so ever. If you are using a SCS ecu , you can monitor the air box temp sensor with SXtune or SXCar this way quite easily. This may not resolve your complaint about low speed running however , but give it a try and don't forget to plug the hole in the airbox . The easiest way may be to just buy another air temp sensor and keep the old one in the air box as a plug.
If you are already running without the IAM/IAC , you should plug the air passage between the throttle body throats as iwilson demonstrated. The only reason for the passage between is for the idle circuit it adds no other benefit .
 
Why not just modify the fuel map to correct whatever your issue is? MAny of the low rpm and idle complaints have been easily solved, and messing with the intake sensor you will find that there might be a 5-10 deg difference in temperature due to heat soak when at prolonged idle but with air flowing over the sensor you will find less of a difference for ambient air so placing the sensor elsewhere changes very little unless nearer a hear source.
 
City Garage said:
Why not just modify the fuel map to correct whatever your issue is? MAny of the low rpm and idle complaints have been easily solved, and messing with the intake sensor you will find that there might be a 5-10 deg difference in temperature due to heat soak when at prolonged idle but with air flowing over the sensor you will find less of a difference for ambient air so placing the sensor elsewhere changes very little unless nearer a hear source.
Click to expand...
If I knew what to change I might try it. This is why I got the Dyno jet PCV
 
City Garage said:
Why not just modify the fuel map to correct whatever your issue is? MAny of the low rpm and idle complaints have been easily solved, and messing with the intake sensor you will find that there might be a 5-10 deg difference in temperature due to heat soak when at prolonged idle but with air flowing over the sensor you will find less of a difference for ambient air so placing the sensor elsewhere changes very little unless nearer a hear source.
Click to expand...
I am planning on a Dyno session in a month or so, whenever the last parts arrive, any more detail on the suggestions above would be much appreciated.
An unlocked SCS ECU has been fitted.
 
With the link between the two intakes and the 270 degree crank, at idle one intake goes lean and the ECU over compensates sending the other side too rich and gets very confused. Blocking this link fixes that issue.
 
I'm running without the air valve and having plugged the cross between the cylynders throats. I absolutely confirm this intervention, proposed by Iwilson, fixed immediately any idle issue and improve a lot general engine smoothly running. Nevertheless behavior at low rpm/throttle opening remains bad, giving the bike a very short usable rpm range, let's say from 3500 to 6700. That is not the ideal. Thus my intention to work on that
 
TonyA said:
If I knew what to change I might try it. This is why I got the Dyno jet PCV
Click to expand...
Its like we talked about before. It seems like every bike has a different issue and none are consistent across the years. Same thing with the wiring.
 
City Garage said:
What map version are you running?
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Good question, until now the bike has been running decatted with factory shorties and was set up for that on the factory ECU by the then local dealer, for the PO.
The new ECU was supposed to come with map options for the original factory exhaust and another for the shorty set up - i haven't plugged it in to the software to have a look as yet. Current thinking is to run the shorties with the cat for noise reduction reasons, as long as that doesn't strangle it completely - so expecting to have to modify whichever map. The throttle body balance tube has been plugged.

Bit of a thread highjack here - perhaps should have started a new thread for this.
 
ntst8 said:
Good question, until now the bike has been running decatted with factory shorties and was set up for that on the factory ECU by the then local dealer, for the PO.
The new ECU was supposed to come with map options for the original factory exhaust and another for the shorty set up - i haven't plugged it in to the software to have a look as yet. Current thinking is to run the shorties with the cat for noise reduction reasons, as long as that doesn't strangle it completely - so expecting to have to modify whichever map. The throttle body balance tube has been plugged.

Bit of a thread highjack here - perhaps should have started a new thread for this
Click to expand...
send me a PM with what ecu typhoon or 400 plus what map. I can email you the latest maps we have
 
City Garage said:
Its like we talked about before. It seems like every bike has a different issue and none are consistent across the years. Same thing with the wiring.
Click to expand...
Some of the issues are mechanical/design issues which can be addressed with physical modifications. Such as crankcase breathing and idle control (there are more but those two are my specialty subjects). :) Others are software related and as such can only be addressed by changes to the mapping. Many require a combination of the two to fully resolve the underlying issue. Trying to trick the ECU with o2 sensor eliminators or changing the value of sensors is just treating the symptom not the underlying cause.

If you're serious about sorting the bike out you need to be able to remap the ECU. I see so many people on this forum quite rightly unhappy with the basics i.e. won't start, won't idle and chucks oil everywhere. All are fixable. A programmable ECU is an unnecessary expense unless you have the ability to make use of it. I know SCS can unlock one of theirs and I'm sure the OMEX password has been posted here before. Someone aka @Stu Bodycote needs to get a programmable OMEX and sort the map out - no doubt there'd be plenty of owners happy to pay to either send their ECU in or flash a new map in themselves.

The physical changes I've made are well documented here and are a mornings work even for the mechanically handicapped!

As usual I'll finish this post with a practical demonstration of how good this engine can be for the few who haven't already seen it. If I can save one more it's worth it! :)

 
Quite simply, I dont have the time...sorry.
At present I manage a local car garage, and run Motorvated in my spare time. I'm also trying to fix our house up with what seems like a never ending two storey extension (there's only two rooms that haven't been involved in the extension). In all honesty I'm bloody exhausted....but I've been trying to get as many customers through my doors as possible whilst Norton still have theirs closed. This month I'm having a little bit of a break and putting the house first on the weekends... my missus has been extremely patient, so its only fair. Although so far its all been about the garage security ie cctv and security bollards.... over bathroom and kitchen works :oops:
Until Norton decide what they're doing with spare parts ie are they going to supply, or are they not....I am not going to commit to going full time with my own business. When I do though, then yeah I'll most certainly be looking into ways to improve the platform.
 
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Q would be a good guy to ask though....seeing as I spotted two 961 Dominators in his workshop last night, when he was talking to M and Bond o_O:D
 
iwilson said:
Some of the issues are mechanical/design issues which can be addressed with physical modifications. Such as crankcase breathing and idle control (there are more but those two are my specialty subjects). :) Others are software related and as such can only be addressed by changes to the mapping. Many require a combination of the two to fully resolve the underlying issue. Trying to trick the ECU with o2 sensor eliminators or changing the value of sensors is just treating the symptom not the underlying cause.

If you're serious about sorting the bike out you need to be able to remap the ECU. I see so many people on this forum quite rightly unhappy with the basics i.e. won't start, won't idle and chucks oil everywhere. All are fixable. A programmable ECU is an unnecessary expense unless you have the ability to make use of it. I know SCS can unlock one of theirs and I'm sure the OMEX password has been posted here before. Someone aka @Stu Bodycote needs to get a programmable OMEX and sort the map out - no doubt there'd be plenty of owners happy to pay to either send their ECU in or flash a new map in themselves.

The physical changes I've made are well documented here and are a mornings work even for the mechanically handicapped!

As usual I'll finish this post with a practical demonstration of how good this engine can be for the few who haven't already seen it. If I can save one more it's worth it! :)

Click to expand...

Agreed. I, for example, plan to have a new exhaust system made but will not do this until I know the bike (2018 Euro 4) can be set up on a rolling road. What is frustrating is the confusion around Omex. Some threads mention a secret password. A Faceache contributor claims he has been told by Omex that the ecu was never planned to be mappable. I have emailed Omex asking whether we could in the future either use the existing ecu or buy an Omex 600 so we can map once New Norton sort out what they are doing. No response and they do not take phone calls. Another undesirable feature of my bike is the switch-like off idle throttle response which makes it difficult to perform a smooth clutch take up every time. Doesn’t help the clutch either. Be nice to have a switchable map for town work. All we want to do is to be able to map the thing like any other bike!
 
The very first Omex ecu's on the SVA bikes had a password. Ive got it somewhere amongst my paperwork, if anyone needs it.
Yeah, I know who you're talking about on FB. The euro4 Omex has dealer maps, just like the euro3.
The off throttle response is probably down to the poor design of the throttle bodies. Its like driving a car, running SU carburettors with empty dashpots.
 
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