Cosentino damping cartridges
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Holmeslice
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I most definitely run the Cosentino cartridge kit, and this kit goes into every bike we build at NYC Norton.
It is the only kit out there that can be installed without any mods to your Norton forks, drops right in, and allows compression, rebound and preload adjustment on both sides. It incorporates Showa's latest shim-stack cartridges with Cosentino's custom valving to allow infinite adjustment. Cosentino can supply 7 different spring rates based on your riding needs. It is legal in all the US racing orgs, and is invisible other than the custom polished alloy fork bolts up top that house the rebound adjustment cover plugs.
I will make a car analogy here: The suspension in a Ferrari will be a lot different than the suspension in a Cadillac El Dorado. If comfort and a soft, plush-couch ride is what you're looking for, this may not be the kit for you. If it's high performance, and instant compliance and adaptability to the different surface imperfections, then you're in the right spot.
email me at info AT nycnorton DOT com if you want more details. Happy to oblige.
All the best,
It is the only kit out there that can be installed without any mods to your Norton forks, drops right in, and allows compression, rebound and preload adjustment on both sides. It incorporates Showa's latest shim-stack cartridges with Cosentino's custom valving to allow infinite adjustment. Cosentino can supply 7 different spring rates based on your riding needs. It is legal in all the US racing orgs, and is invisible other than the custom polished alloy fork bolts up top that house the rebound adjustment cover plugs.
I will make a car analogy here: The suspension in a Ferrari will be a lot different than the suspension in a Cadillac El Dorado. If comfort and a soft, plush-couch ride is what you're looking for, this may not be the kit for you. If it's high performance, and instant compliance and adaptability to the different surface imperfections, then you're in the right spot.
email me at info AT nycnorton DOT com if you want more details. Happy to oblige.
All the best,
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Here's a URL to view on this Norton alteration.
http://www.cosentinoengineering.com/ind ... age405.htm
Alrighty Kennie, music to my ears. All them fancy adjustments and spring rates had me going there for a moment but your actual description of the feeling comparison makes me appreciate even more my blunt statement, 'ya poor things don't yet realize what ya is missing out on' with the lurking genius of factory isolastics and Roadholders guts. If ya can feel your fork action enough to feel the forks action, oh well, gotta make do as best ya can till something better demo'd. Someday hope to fluster them balloon tire bunch of corner cripples w/o any excuse from em claiming, "Yeah but it ain't really a Norton Commando." hehehehe
http://www.cosentinoengineering.com/ind ... age405.htm
Alrighty Kennie, music to my ears. All them fancy adjustments and spring rates had me going there for a moment but your actual description of the feeling comparison makes me appreciate even more my blunt statement, 'ya poor things don't yet realize what ya is missing out on' with the lurking genius of factory isolastics and Roadholders guts. If ya can feel your fork action enough to feel the forks action, oh well, gotta make do as best ya can till something better demo'd. Someday hope to fluster them balloon tire bunch of corner cripples w/o any excuse from em claiming, "Yeah but it ain't really a Norton Commando." hehehehe
Holmeslice
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stockie2 said:
Thanks Richard,
Does that kit drop right in with no modifications and allow compression and rebound on both sides?
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I installed Chris' kit in my '73, but haven't had a chance to try it out yet - one of my kids moved back in, 'temporarily' filling the garage with furniture and putting my quickie re-do on hold until next week.
(I cracked the oil tank back in March, and decided to strip and re-do the bike, including repairing the inner primary, weeping gas tank [Pakistani weld] and cracked weld on the side stand lug. Ended up doing a valve job, the Cosentino forks, Ikon shocks and the sleeved master cylinder. Bike has been sitting with about a week's work left on it since May 20)
The kit is designed to replace the stock inserts with the forks on the bike - only need to remove the wheel and fender so you can slide the forks individually. Its a little more complicated if you have the forks off, but still only takes a couple hours at most.
There's a needle valve in the top cap and bottom bolt, giving adjustment to compression and rebound damping. Only drawback is the axle needs to come out to adjust the bottom allen, but how often does that happen?
Chris included two sets of springs, a bottle of Redline and a couple of custom tools to install the cartridges. The wrench is a little thick to fit inside the spring coils, but does work. He will tailor the kit for your bike, with different springs, fork caps and oil dependent on how your bike is set up, your weight, and what type of riding you intend to do (one-up, two-up, track).
(I cracked the oil tank back in March, and decided to strip and re-do the bike, including repairing the inner primary, weeping gas tank [Pakistani weld] and cracked weld on the side stand lug. Ended up doing a valve job, the Cosentino forks, Ikon shocks and the sleeved master cylinder. Bike has been sitting with about a week's work left on it since May 20)
The kit is designed to replace the stock inserts with the forks on the bike - only need to remove the wheel and fender so you can slide the forks individually. Its a little more complicated if you have the forks off, but still only takes a couple hours at most.
There's a needle valve in the top cap and bottom bolt, giving adjustment to compression and rebound damping. Only drawback is the axle needs to come out to adjust the bottom allen, but how often does that happen?
Chris included two sets of springs, a bottle of Redline and a couple of custom tools to install the cartridges. The wrench is a little thick to fit inside the spring coils, but does work. He will tailor the kit for your bike, with different springs, fork caps and oil dependent on how your bike is set up, your weight, and what type of riding you intend to do (one-up, two-up, track).
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Thank's Richard, the lansdowne as Rebound in oneside and compression adjustment in the other, But the Compression side as a restriction that gives "some" rebound effect,
They where originaly designed for the GB Manx racer that Luke Notton won last years Lansdowne Race meeting on ,and set the second fastest lap at Goodwood,against all comers
So for a top class product at a reccession beating price? 300 sold world wide plus used in 12 racer's
They where originaly designed for the GB Manx racer that Luke Notton won last years Lansdowne Race meeting on ,and set the second fastest lap at Goodwood,against all comers
So for a top class product at a reccession beating price? 300 sold world wide plus used in 12 racer's
Holmeslice said:
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Holmeslice said:
That's splitting hairs a bit. On a flimsy fork like a Norton, there would probably be some advantage to have both legs evenly performing all springing/damping duties to reduce binding. But plenty of modern front ends split duties leg to leg (as does Landsdowne with comp in one leg and rebound in the other) and some have a spring only in one side with the damper cartridge in the other.
The bigger question I have for Landsdowne vs. Cosentino is the actual method of damping. Cosentino states clearly that it is a valve stack for high-speed damping, but Landsdowne is not clear whether it uses a valve stack or orifice (V squared) damping. The Landsdown price is about half Cosentino and by all accounts an improvement over stock with stated easy install. Half-price is attractive, but true modern valve-stack damping would be superior. Worth twice the price? Hard to say. Wish somebody'd do a shootout... Can anybody afford to buy both and report the results with street riding and lap times?!
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All damping works on the resistance /control of compressed oil. i have showa internals with shims under the bench some where,they are quite basic i n the fact the shim simply uncovers a ring of holes.
I doubt the Norton Commando road users would be putting their bikes through 45 degree knee scraping burns, except our Hobit!
I doubt the Norton Commando road users would be putting their bikes through 45 degree knee scraping burns, except our Hobit!
Whitworth Ranch said:
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>>All damping works on the resistance /control of compressed oil. i have showa internals with shims under the bench some where,they are quite basic i n the fact the shim simply uncovers a ring of holes.
Yes, like most great inventions: simple but effective. The idea is that as the flow capacity of the low speed damping circuit (a bleed hole) is reached (by a bump or pothole) the shim stack (several shims of varying thickness/diameter) flexes and exposes some of the underlying holes which form the high speed circuit, which allows more oil to flow. The result is a variable 'hole' size dependent on damper shaft velocity that is good at managing the movement of the damper rod over a wide range of shaft speeds. This allows you to dial in the low speed circuit (in my system controlled by needle valves) to best handle acceleration/braking chassis pitch motions yet still have the shim stack high speed circuit to independently tune behavior over pavement imperfections. 'Low speed' and 'high speed' refer to the speed of the motion of the fork slider, not the motorcycle's overall speed. In general, most chassis reactions due to the application of throttle and brakes are of the low speed variety and bumps, ripples, potholes, etc, are of the high speed variety. The main reason for the invention of shim stack damping is because of the impossibility of tuning an orifice style system to handle both situations optimally.
John, your kits are nicely machined and an improvement on the stock setup but to say that shim stack damping is not a significant improvement over a fixed hole is to ignore 30 years of race results and the R&D of every suspension manufacturer. Ohlins, Showa, Kayaba, Race Tech, K Tech, WP, Marzocchi, etc, all use shim stack. Why? Its the best system out there so far. As far as price goes, yes your kit is more affordable. I've looked into making my own damper cartridges, outsourcing manufacture, etc, and the most economical solution was to buy existing Showas. My aim was to provide the best performance possible and I think we accomplished that.
>>I doubt the Norton Commando road users would be putting their bikes through 45 degree knee scraping burns
Actually, damping upgrades are most beneficial when the bike is not leaned over. Large lean angles make the suspension ineffective, hence the need in modern racers for some lateral compliance so the bike does not bounce over bumps when leaned over. Street riders will see a large increase in ride comfort as the bumps and potholes are much better dealt with using shim stack damping than anything else. The top-out spring in the cartridge also greatly reduces the clunk that you get with the stock setup.
Regards,
Chris
http://moto2-usa.blogspot.com/
Yes, like most great inventions: simple but effective. The idea is that as the flow capacity of the low speed damping circuit (a bleed hole) is reached (by a bump or pothole) the shim stack (several shims of varying thickness/diameter) flexes and exposes some of the underlying holes which form the high speed circuit, which allows more oil to flow. The result is a variable 'hole' size dependent on damper shaft velocity that is good at managing the movement of the damper rod over a wide range of shaft speeds. This allows you to dial in the low speed circuit (in my system controlled by needle valves) to best handle acceleration/braking chassis pitch motions yet still have the shim stack high speed circuit to independently tune behavior over pavement imperfections. 'Low speed' and 'high speed' refer to the speed of the motion of the fork slider, not the motorcycle's overall speed. In general, most chassis reactions due to the application of throttle and brakes are of the low speed variety and bumps, ripples, potholes, etc, are of the high speed variety. The main reason for the invention of shim stack damping is because of the impossibility of tuning an orifice style system to handle both situations optimally.
John, your kits are nicely machined and an improvement on the stock setup but to say that shim stack damping is not a significant improvement over a fixed hole is to ignore 30 years of race results and the R&D of every suspension manufacturer. Ohlins, Showa, Kayaba, Race Tech, K Tech, WP, Marzocchi, etc, all use shim stack. Why? Its the best system out there so far. As far as price goes, yes your kit is more affordable. I've looked into making my own damper cartridges, outsourcing manufacture, etc, and the most economical solution was to buy existing Showas. My aim was to provide the best performance possible and I think we accomplished that.
>>I doubt the Norton Commando road users would be putting their bikes through 45 degree knee scraping burns
Actually, damping upgrades are most beneficial when the bike is not leaned over. Large lean angles make the suspension ineffective, hence the need in modern racers for some lateral compliance so the bike does not bounce over bumps when leaned over. Street riders will see a large increase in ride comfort as the bumps and potholes are much better dealt with using shim stack damping than anything else. The top-out spring in the cartridge also greatly reduces the clunk that you get with the stock setup.
Regards,
Chris
http://moto2-usa.blogspot.com/
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Gosh maybe some day Peel can test em all in same conditions. My opinion now is forks mostly matter in the more upright suspension function and not fork can really take up the sideways loads even if designed flexy to do so. I think world is shooting selves in foot to seek side load handling at ends of the bike instead of the middle. Stiffen the forks up and damp as can, robust the rear/swing arm too but allow the conflict to work through the center damping structures. Great idea to have adjustable compression and rebound in separate legs as forks are compressed into good bush over lap when the extremes of dampening are applied. The thing that most confuses me is I put foot pegs on fork brace which moves with sliders and always felt them expand as I tip into lean with or w/o power applied. My SV650 with Race Tech cartidge emulators expands just weaving in lane as well as normal easy pitch over for normal decent hwy turns. Don't know if this data point may change dampen setting though.
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Chris, When you say "My system" do you mean the chinese dampers?
coseng said:
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If showa where once made in Japan..they it's going to be China or India or...........
Cheesy said:
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Great! order soon my back log is growing :lol:
Just working on Triumph T140 sets as we speak.
Just working on Triumph T140 sets as we speak.
Snorton74 said:
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john robert bould said:
If that is you interpretation of how a shim stack works you're either displaying an astonishingly low understanding of damper basics for somebody who offers a damper for sale or trying to bad-mouth a competing design. Fine tuning the shim stack gives a huge amount of control of damper characteristics and as I follow Chris' work for quite a few years now I'm sure he's able to exploit that potential very well and has done so.
Plus your "Chinese" comment is simply pathetic. There's actually a Showa damper manufacturing unit about 100 mi south of your place so if you wanted to imply sub-standard third world country quality that backfired slightly.
Thanks for making my decision on what to buy much easier once again, well done on that.
Tim
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