Chains

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Hi Andy
I've got a chain question for you.

I'm in the process of turning my race Atlas/Commando hybrid into a road bike. It has a single row 428 primary chain running behind a chain guard, not in an oil bath. Since it's a race bike the primary chain gets a squirt of chain lube every 10 minutes ( or however long a race is) and gets replaced quite often.

Now, if Im going to ride this on the road it's going to get lubed far less often so I'm wondering if I can even use the chain like this. Several people suggest the use of a belt, but that could end up quite expensive.

Are there any chains that would be suitable or should I bite the bullet and go for a belt?

Thanks
John
 
Firstly I disagree with greasing O ring chains. The only point would be to stop corrosion. They are marketed
as maintainance free and that is what they are. To keep the O rings supple would be an almost impossible job.
Again my thoughts only.

As for connecting links, all O and X ring type chains have a press fit plate not a loose one ee my previous comments on
how to secure the clips on this tyoe of chain. As for replacing them periodically I totally disagree. Replace the clip
regualarly if you must but the pins on the connecting link will have the same wear as the rest of the chain. introduce
2 unworn pins into the equation and crap could happen, see the word COULD.

A chain and 2 sprockets is a gearbox and like a gearbox you can replace intermeshing gears, but replace one gear and use an
old one for the other and the box will be noisy and wear will be rapid. Why do think the best chain wear is when the bike is
new with new sprockets and chain.

On old bikes using 08B-1 (428) if you ahve a chain with even number of pins then an O ring makes good sense. A bit
of a bugger to fit as it has to be endless and may need spacing out as it is wider than standard but still a good idea
and used in UK for racers with open drives.

Andy
 
What I have been doing for decades with standard chains is boiling them in a mixture of parafin wax and gear oil. I have a tin that has about 2/3rds parafin wax the type that is for sealing jam jars or making candles, and 1/3rd gear oil. Clean the chain, soak it in the hot mixture, then hang it while still hot so that the excess wax drips off. The chain is then sealed against dirt almost like an O ring chain. This works really well on dirt bikes. The chain will not be to sticky or greasy after this treatment so dirt does not stick to it excessively. After you do this to a partly worn chain you will find the chain will be tighter on the sprockets and you may have to move the back wheel forwards. I treated my chain this way before a 3300 mile trip this summer and I didn't have to adjust the chain during the trip. I did spray the chain with Chain wax a few times during the trip. I have used the same tin of this mixture for about 20 years. This year I added a bit more gear oil to it.
 
Think of chain as a load of bearings typicall y around 100 of them. To work the lube has to get to the bearing surfaces
that is the pin and the bush. The only way to do this is to boil in wax but it is smelly and grounds for divorce.

ALL other methods are technically better than nothing. O rings keep the lube where it is meant to be, on the pin a nd bush
but once it has gone, and over time it will get out, there is no way to replace it. Add to this the fact that the o rings hold the
chain together and there is no way seeing exactly how worn the chain, there can be problems. Most modern bikes have a
little sticker on the swinging arm saying "change chain" and it is interesting to note this is usually about on half the
available adjustment.

The only way to measure wear on an O ring is to mic the pins which means pulling it apart. I recently did a report on
a failed O ring and found it to be 6 times over the allowed wear. The pin had gone through the hardening and worn
until it snapped. The bike shop was astounded as it had only just given the a service !!!!!! This service involved cleaning
the chain and spraying it. They were not happy when I said this was a waiste of time but they still paid my bill.

Putoline do a boil in wax which I sell at cost. At full mark up folks would not buy it which is why shops dont stock it.

Andy
 
So does that mean that boiling the chain in canola oil and Keralon-B is a good idea or a bad idea?
 
I thot it was common knowledge that when Brits were so poor motorcycles were all they had, they'd clean a chain in room temperature paraffin [kerosine] as heating stuff costs ya know and may smell more too, then drop in melted, not boiled grease, preferablly graphited, then fish it out to drip off what ever, so ready to go when current in use chain gets a bit on the dry side.

Andy I brought up a small side issue prior of chain and sprocket life that has to do with the even or odd teeth and links counts for extended life of both. Worse case was even teeth and even links as allowed same links and teeth to hit on about each going around.

I've gotten some education from the garden tractor pullers and the chainsaw racers, who go to lenghts to lighten their chain to barely last a few cuts. Check out this for cycles...

https://www.denniskirk.com/ek/520-mvx-s ... 932120.sku
EK 520 MVX Gold Supersport Series Drive Chain ATV Motorcycle ...
https://www.denniskirk.com/ek/520-mvx.. ... 932120.sku
Find the EK 520 MVX Gold Supersport Series Drive Chain at Dennis Kirk. ... useHigh Performance, lightweight street chain with lightening holesSpecs
 
Re the high rate of wear on the masterlink of a sealed chain- I have noticed this to be the case as have all the other club members who run them. We recently had a good discussion about this at our Rally and the consensus was it is a good plan to replace the masterlink at the half life point, around ten thousand miles.

On the first sealed chain that I used, the Masterlink was left in for a full 20,000 miles. When the chain was removed, I pulled apart some of the links to have a look. They were still in decent shape and had lube, but the Masterlink was dry internally and very worn. The visible wear there was so great that it was a wonder the pins had not let go, about a third of the pin material was missing. The seals on the Masterlink did not work as well as those on the factory pressed links, the lube had leaked out plus dirt had gotten in and severely worn things. I have since learned that this is a typical occurance with these masterlinks.
Perhaps the rivetted type joiner links stay sealed for longer.

Glen
 
I would put most of the problems concerning joining links down to the fitting of the chain.

I have fitted maybe thousands and never had a problem. Even fitters in "bike shops" have
a lack of knowledge, they send them to me. Spring clip cons have a press fit plate on "ring"
chains and if fitted correctly should last, they all come in a sealed bag full of grease (well they
should do). Very few chains are "shop" fitted as the labour costs are high and the rash of tools
available to a simple hammer job is amazing and really not needed. Go into any chain works
and you will see guys with hammers and punches, I am lucky to iwis punches.

Having read the blurb on the chains above I am still not happy that tensile strength is still held
in high regard. Go to any of the chain calculation programes, punch in the details of your bike
and it will recommend another form of power transmission. Even a 30HP bike needs 1" chain
and we run 5/8.

I will never subscribe to the trend setters. Fads come and go and soon it will be a new generation
of sealed chain or lube, with the compulsory price hike.

As I have said in another post, sealed chains are good if you ride all weathers, daily and cover
mile after mile. My Bandit, not the new pussy 94HP version, runs very smoothly on good old iwis
industrial chain. It got me through Spain, Andora and France at stupid speeds, yes I got fined on a couple
of occasions, and all it needs is a little care.

Also as stated it beggars belief how we managed back in the 60s and 70s without all the hype.

Have a good one

Andy
 
While in Peru South America I came up with a real good formula to "boil" O-ring chains in. It had paraffin, grease, tar and graphite powder. The wax mixed with graphite got all down inside and made it work but was too brittle and flaked off so grease was added to make it pliable and tar to make it stick. Not too much grease or tar because then the dust will stick!! Just clean the chain in kerosene while heating the wax formula. (Remember to poke a hole in the middle of the wax in your can or it will blow out like a big plug as you heat it!!) Tie a wire onto the chain and dip it into the hot wax formula until it stops bubbling and pull it out to cool. Then give it a quick dip to make the formula stick on the outside and you're good to go. Run two chains on a set of sprockets to increase the life of all four components. I would say that the system will work just as well for non-O-ring chain.
 
hobot said:
Andy I brought up a small side issue prior of chain and sprocket life that has to do with the even or odd teeth and links counts for extended life of both. Worse case was even teeth and even links as allowed same links and teeth to hit on about each going around.

True, I learned of this the hard way when I changed my Ducati to 14/42 gearing w/ a 102 link chain ("current"), got noise, vibration, and rapid wear. The stock setup was 15/42/102 and I eventually went to 15/44/104 ("custom") which was much better. Various combinations can be checked for repeat contact numbers at http://www.gearingcommander.com/ and some for my case are below.

Chains
 
motorson said:
While in Peru South America I came up with a real good formula to "boil" O-ring chains in. It had paraffin, grease, tar and graphite powder. The wax mixed with graphite got all down inside and made it work but was too brittle and flaked off so grease was added to make it pliable and tar to make it stick. Not too much grease or tar because then the dust will stick!! Just clean the chain in kerosene while heating the wax formula. (Remember to poke a hole in the middle of the wax in your can or it will blow out like a big plug as you heat it!!) Tie a wire onto the chain and dip it into the hot wax formula until it stops bubbling and pull it out to cool. Then give it a quick dip to make the formula stick on the outside and you're good to go. Run two chains on a set of sprockets to increase the life of all four components. I would say that the system will work just as well for non-O-ring chain.

You are kidding aren't you? I thought the whole point of the orings at the plates was to keep factory grease in, and dirt out, so why would you boil one in grease, its not going to get past the orings, and will not do the orings much good either I expect.
 
If you look at an O-ring chain closely you'll notice that the o-rings are only between the plates on the outside. There are no o-rings where the rollers contact the side plates on the inside of the chain. So, the o-rings only do half the job. In the dirt, o-ring chains last a lot longer than non o-ring but still get dry and dirt and dust go in between the rollers and pins and plates. My solution worked really well and made a chain feel like a new one for about 2 months.
 
Well if it worked for you I can't argue. 8)

I did a lot of Enduro/MX riding. We cleaned and boiled the old non o'ring chains in wax regularly, they were cheap, but high maintenance. When o'ring chains became available we used them, and changed to using recommended chain spray designed for the o'ring chains, and never looked back.

My Commando stands out as the exception to every bike I rode since, having still got the 530 standard chain without orings. I gets spray lubed, and works fine. I do not do big mileage in bad conditions though.
 
Some of this argument reminds me when car manufactures first went to greaseless suspension joints. Some owners were getting the new greaseless joints tapped and fitted with grease zerks. I hardly think there is a car today with grease zerks in the suspension fittings.
 
+1
When the factory sealed suspension parts work as designed, they are terrific, much better than a greasable item that needs greasing but gets forgotten and goes dry.

I had a loud rattle that sounded as though it were coming from the front end /suspension of my f 350 diesel pickup. I took it to a local frontvend shop and he was convinced it was due to worn ball joints. "those factory sealed units are junk, switch to the Moog greasable, much better" was his comment. At $1300 parts and labour, I decided to do the job myself. It took me about a day and a half, parts cost was around $300, but it was a completely wasted effort. I sawed the original factory sealed ball joints in half with the metal bandsaw. Inside it was perfect, clean factory grease packed in nicely. All were nice and tight as well, 110,00 miles on them.Kind of wish I still had them in there.
The rattle problem turned out to be coming from worn out urethane bushings in the sway bar assembly, nothing to do with the front end or ball joints.

Getting a bit away from the oring or xring chain debate, but the principal of a factory sealed wear item that is assembled in a clean controlled environment is the same. It seems to work very well to extend useful life.
 
The rattle problem turned out to be coming from worn out urethane bushings in the sway bar assembly, nothing to do with the front end or ball joints.

This is a huge issue in health care too, where it hurts may not be where its coming from. Really helps to perform effective exams to guide treatments but of course best to know the weak spots and stay ahead of its decay. On the other hand sometimes there ain't no test available so gotta dig in and hope ya don't miss it or break something else or you in the process.

As reported the drum is not hard to mill drill or file so better harden or even chrome plate as looks like Ludwig did on his long lasting 520 conversion. If only the drum had odd 43 T as I miss counted in past instead of even 42, though 99 link chain skips same teeth most the time.
 
The rattle problem turned out to be coming from worn out urethane bushings in the sway bar assembly, nothing to do with the front end or ball joints.

This is a huge issue in health care too, where it hurts may not be where its coming from. Really helps to perform effective exams to guide treatments but of course best to know the weak spots and stay ahead of its decay. On the other hand sometimes there ain't no test available so gotta dig in and hope ya don't miss it or break something else or you in the process.

As reported the drum is not hard to mill drill or file so better harden or even chrome plate as looks like Ludwig did on his long lasting 520 conversion. If only the drum had odd 43 T as I miss counted in past instead of even 42, though 99 link chain skips same teeth most the time.

O=OBSOLETE, X=ECELLENT
 
andychain said:
Firstly I disagree with greasing O ring chains. The only point would be to stop corrosion. They are marketed
as maintainance free and that is what they are. To keep the O rings supple would be an almost impossible job.
Again my thoughts only.

Andy


Thanks for joining us. Certainly, though, you're not advocating running O-ring chains DRY? :shock: Side plates, roller, sprockets all need lube...
 
O ring is marketed as a maintainance free chain.

Rollers dont roll they oscilate in and out of the sprocket.

Lube will reduce some noise when the chain gets dry but will do little for
overall wear.

If you must use someyhing use an oily rag with diesel engine on it, it might
keep the rongs lubed but I doubt it, and it has lots of detergent so will clean it.

Off to popham now see you all

Andy
 
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