Chain

L.A.B.

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L.A.B. said:
Andy,

With the cranked link fitted correctly, is there also a 'right' and a 'wrong' way to fit the chain to the sprockets, or doesn't it matter?
andychain said:
It doesnt matter as long as the connecting link is fitted with the clip "close" end facing forward.
 
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concours said:
Andy,I'm still unclear on the crank link orientation, should the narrow end go FIRST, in the direction of chain rotation? Or last? Or no matter, so long as not adjacent the master link? Thanks
Here's Andy's pic (L.A.B.)
ce68fc91-2a1c-4feb-bd9c-00dfe875d3ab_zps82f9d463.png

To be honest, with respect to Andy, I can't see how it can make any difference. The chain's subjected to a tensile load which ever way it's positioned ref. direction of travel.I can see the difference between the two, on one chain the cranked end of the link is riveted to the chain,on the other it is attached by a split link.
Could Andy explain in better detail?

P.S Sorry missed Andy's post ref. chain wear and possibility of split ling riding up bend on side plate , fair enough. :) .
 
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Ludwig

Are you off the lav forum?

The chain pictured is a standard duplex and I would expect it to fail.

Some numpty tried it on a T160 with the same result.

The chain I supply is totally different with a pin app double the size and no rollers to fail.
Add to this that the centre plate is a press fit which stops pin flex then you have a fail
safe chain that has worked very well mon Laverdas for years.

I will try to post a pic via my mate next week to show the difference.

Andy
 
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Further to my previous post a guy on the T160 owners club has fitted a Merc chain,
I supplied modified sprokets etc.

To date I have been told that it has done over 40,000 miles without adjustment although
I cannot to confirm this.

T160 chains are like rocking horse shit but owners would still go for belts over a bullet proof
cheap option !!!!!!!!!!!

At the end of the day I will not give duff information, firstly I have too many friends who
are satisfied clients and more importantly I like to sleep at nights. Today at Kempton bike show
I sold many chains and explained why I was changing the crap spring clips for good ones, at
my cost, and also explaining why crank links need fitting a certain way. I also show proof of
why you should never use new parts in a used chain. Everybody I spoke to understood the issues
involved and thanked me.

Most off you have never met me and I can understand the resistance to accept what I say,
especially as "I must know more than the manufacturers" ( sorry spring clip quote). The fact that also
Renold is putting in crank wrongly does not worry me at all and I for one will continue to educate
people who I give talks to and who come to shows. It is almost impossible on the forum, with or
without pics to show the dangers.

I repeat yes the manufacturers do get it wrong and the fact that they choose to ignore a fat, grey
haired old guy from UK does not bother me one jot and in 40 years I am still un-sued.

I will continue to help if you want but if the moderaters want me off so be it.

hey its good to be an arsey old guy and I love the discussions.

Andy
 
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andychain said:
Ludwig

Are you off the lav forum?

What is the lav forum ? .
These chains where the Renold camshaft chains as used in MB inline 6 cyl . 70-ties 80 -ties .
As said , only one failure , resulting in a 2 hrs push home .
 
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Ludwig

You are correct they are from Merc but a petrol engine the bullet proof one is from
a Merc diesel engine Cahin ref for the petrol is D67ZN and for the diesel D67HP.

The first is a standard pin roller chain with a pin 3.31, and a slide bfit centre plate and
the D67HP has a pin dia of 4.44, no rollers (bush chain) and press fit centre plates.

A toatlly different beast.

Go to a Merc dealer and ask to the difference from an OM 642 pt 000.993.1076

Andy
 
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Yeah the moderators don't kick me off and I stay stoopid like a politician. What gives? Some people -things swear too . Sometimes you don't even need to talk about Nortons at all. Or chains.
 

cyclegeezer

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andychain said:
I will continue to help if you want but if the moderaters want me off so be it.

hey its good to be an arsey old guy and I love the discussions.

Andy

Please continue Andy, this is fascinating info.
 
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Ihave been trying to follow this thread, and am now hopelessly confused (not difficult to accomplish). My mk111 came from the factory with what I always called a half link chain. I know this because I am the original owner and I still have the chain.(why do we old farts keep stuff like that?) I have never been able to find one like it: probably just didn't know where to look. So I have been installing chains that I thought were a direct replacement for the original, but they never seem to fit right and wear prematurely because that is what the various suppliers carried. I have never heard of iwis chain untill I saw them mentioned here . Please don't take this as a critizism (Andy), it is just a question, why aren't your chains advertised and sold by our suppliers if they are the best and CORRECT chain for our Nortons? Maybe they are and I'm not aware of it. I never knew that a chain could be so complicated! for sure in our youths we pretty much just ignored them and took them for granted! oil them every now and then with watever was available and when they started to slap around, pull the rear wheel back!!
Please continue this thread, so maybe someday I can be less confused
 
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Unfortunately they are not my chains they are made by iwis in Munich.

To cut a long story short the people in Munich have absolutely no interest in motorcycles.
This is in common with most others including Sedis, Renold, Wipperman and many others.

It is sad that the majority of chain made now is to DIN which is a minimum standard, hence the
performance drop off in chain life. You can buy BS chain and components from most bearing
stockists across the globe. For Commando the BS designation is 10B-1. However in my opinion
it will not be good enough. Iwis still make product, for 10B-1 read M106SL, above the DIN standard
and it is the only chain I sell apart from a size where they no longer produce it, then I will sell the
best I can get.

Most companies selling chain in the aftermarket sell with a basic knowledge of the product and
with the large national distributors chain knowledge comes very low on the list of priorities.

I will send chain worldwide but I am one guy and cannot afford to advertise as such or spread the
word to where it is most needed, places outside the UK. We are lucky to 2 companies, Jane at
Sprockets Unlimited and myself, who have considerable knowledge with chain. I myself do talks
all over the UK and they are very received. I would post a letter on here from the Exeter MC Club
but cant, but overseas you have little chance. In Europe I am also getting known and attend shows
in Belgium but I make a loss after travel etc etc. I have even sold German chain back into Germany.

You have excuse my over reaction on occasion but bullshit that bikers get told by "experts" regarding
chain makes my blood boil and this bullshit quickly becomes enshrined as gospel.

Going back to your Commandos, yes some where designed with a cranked link, and designed for a
good reason, and those cranked links should be used and fitted correctly. On older Brit machines they
were common on both primary and rear chains.

Finally thanks for your comments and support and remember I supply worldwide but if you can find
chain locally it would be cheaper.

Andy
 

L.A.B.

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I know Andover Norton recommends and sells 'CZ' [Edit] primary chain (in preference to iwis, Renold et al.). What's your opinion of CZ chain, Andy?
 
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I will not diss another chain but CZ came to me and I declned.

Interesting that the late Fluff Brown used to iwis from me.

I would expect prfit margins have something to do with it.

Andy
 

L.A.B.

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andychain said:
I would expect prfit margins have something to do with it.

Yes, possibly, although Joe Seifert ("ZFD") seems to rate the CZ primary chain quite highly, not just because of it's low price.

primary-chain-t7712.html#p80561
ZFD said:
The "Cheap chains from Andover" have a history- the history being we had loads of oproblems with the "quality" chains from Renolds (total desaster) and Iwis/Germany (not quite as bad") until I came across the CZ ones. We have used them for over a decade in racers and roadsters alike- yes, I do race primary chains, I tend to believe vintage racing is not a silouette formula but want to ride as near as posasible what they did ride then- and CZs never caused any problems as primary chains. In my German abode Norton Motors GmbH I also stock and sell them for 500, 650 and 750 Triumphs (duplex and triplex), with the same positive results.
The "cheap" price comes from purchasing a great quantity of chains from CZ themselves and has nothing to do with bad quality.
Joe Seifert
Owner, Andover Norton, Norton Motors Ltd, Norton Motors GmbH and a lot of Norton motorcycles which my kids and I do use on road and track.
 
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Interesting quotes.

Firstly on Norton primary triplex have not been produced by iwis for about 30 years and the
budget version "Elite" I will not sell in the triplex version. See my posts about Merc duplex.

Iwis also do not make a 5/8 x 1/4 so what chains were being used that "were not quite so
bad" puzzles me.

Being retired I can be butally honest, you might have noticed, I have selling iwis for 40 years
and had very few problems, usually from speedway, grass track and riders fitting wrong parts
etc etc. Again I repeat, I sleep at night.

I dont personally care what you fit, belt or crap triplex. In the quote there is an intersting bit tho,
the problem with the current Renold, a fact I have expounded about many times. It took me years
to find a triplex chain Vincents cannot destroy and it works well, but they cannot use the Merc chain
due to the dynamo drive. At the risk of annoying folk I repeat 99% of triplex chain on the market
is crap.

Andy
 
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I forgot to add that that the late and great Fluff Brown of AJS Andover was an
iwis purchaser for many years.

Andy
 
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I HAVE USED 10-B CHAIN FOR YEARS. I HAVE BEEN TOLD THAT IT IS INDUSTRIAL CHAIN AND NO LONGER ACCEPATABLE FOR MOTORCYCLES. THE RS30 IS NOW SUPPOSED TO BE USED. THE DIFFERENCE IS IN THE THICKNESS OF THE LINK. 10B = 1.6 MM OR SO, WHEREAS RS30 = 2MM OR SO. RS30 RUBBED ON MY850 PRIMARY CASE. THE 10B DID NOT. I NEVER HAVE USED A CRANK LINK. THERE IS HEEPS OF ADJUSTMENT ON A COMMANDO [ WE ARE TALKING ABOUT COMMANDO'S HERE ARN'T WE ]. IF YOU PUT A 400X19 TYRE ON THE BACK OF AN EARLY 750, THE 98 LINK CHAIN WILL WORK STILL, BUT THE GUSSETS INSIDE THE FORKS ON THE 850 MEAN YOU HAVE TO USE 10O LINK TO LET THE TYRE MISS THE GUSSETS.
MY QUESTION. WHATS WRONG WITH THE 10B CHAIN? IT IS CHEAPER, AND STILL LASTS ABOUT 6000 MILES. I CANT REMEMBER IF RS30 WAS AVAILABLE IN 1970. I USED THE 110 LENGHT ON MY SUZUKI TITAN IN THOSE DAYS. NO PROBS. I DONT WEAR SPROCKETS OUT EITHER. BOTH SPROCKETS ON MY 750 ARE STILL LIKE NEW [ ONLY DONT 13,000 MILES THOUGH ]. THE 850 REAR SPROCKET IS FEKED AND I HAVE FITTED A NEW 21 TOOTH TO THE FRONT NOW [ HAVE NO IDEA HAW MANY MILES THAT850 HAS DONE ].
 
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I have an interesting one for you chain experts. I just picked up a 73 Commando and the rear chain is adjusted ALL the way loose (chain slack is perfect), thus the rear brake has lots of slack in it even when fully tightened. Please note I have not taken things apart yet and don't know the condition of the rear brake pads or the size of the front sprocket.

Is this an example of needing a 1/2 link to move the rear wheel back a bit further to allow more adjustment on the brake?

If I go to replace the chain, Where in the US would a 10B be available, Or can I just use a 530 non o-ring chain in its place. I notice that my favorite Norton parts house only sells the 530 non o-ring chains now.

Marc
 
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T o answer the last 2 posts.

10B-1 Renold, as used on the nortons from factory was a damb good product.

It was typically made to well above the DIN standard. The driving force for chain manufacture
is industrial and never has been motorcycle. As industrial engineers started demanding the DIN
standard so chain manufacturers used this as the norm.

This is the interesting bit.....DIN is a minimum standard and all the chains made can easily
conform to it as it consists only of a breaking load and tolerance measurement and not a material
spec. Hence the new Renold along with every other maker has in effect dumbed down to DIN.

This is why I sell the iwis product because not only is it still made above the DIN standards but
also has a chromised pin as standard whereas others produce a chromised pin as an "add on" and
an expensive add on at that.

As for the rear slack rear chain please see other threads regarding O and X ring on Commandos
where one member actually states he needed a crank link to get his adjustment right. It is not
rocket science, Norton had to fit a crank link because with some of the sprocket combinations
it was needed. As I have banged on about before O and X ring along with the cursed heavy duty
chains do not have a cranklink option so you are shagged. Either run the chain bollock tight and
risk damage to shafts, run it loose and risk damage to frame, change sprockets or here's a novel
idea get the proper chain.

Modern dealers have no knowledge in chain and the thought of actually fitting a crank link would
scare them. Besides that why sell the proper chain for around £40 when they can sell one for over
£100. Live with it folks.

The correct product is out there you just have to look. I do not deal with dealers as the prime motive
is profit. Buy a chain for £4 and sell for £40 regardless of quality or buy a chain for £25 and sell for
£40....guess what they will do. I have at least 2 dealers who buy from me for their own machines
but sell crap for the public.

Andy
 
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