Boyer Pick up

SteveA · Aug 9, 2014

Here is a question for you knowledgeable chaps...

Why does Boyer fit two trigger coils on its stator plate and trigger them both at the same time?

Don't say wasted spark. Because that will work with one trigger, like it does for Lucas Rita (for example).

It is to get a more reliable trigger signal?.

Note, this is curiosity since I am using a Maney Boyer setup which only has one trigger coil and magnet.

L.A.B. · Aug 9, 2014

As I understand it, using the combined signal from both magnets passing the two linked opposed pickup coils provides an equal pulse every half-rotation of the Boyer stator, and thus it ensures the sparks occur exactly 180 degrees (camshaft, 360 crank) apart, therefore although the system is 'wasted spark' there can be no variation in ignition timing between the two cylinders

The Steve Maney Boyer uses a crankshaft-mounted pickup, so that system only needs a single magnet & coil.

dynodave · Aug 9, 2014

LAB is correct
The double magnet/double coil pick-up would be to twice average magnet strength variation and coil windings and core pick variability. The result is to give a more consistent amplitude symmetry (180 degrees at the pick-up or 360 degrees at the crankshaft) which is critical to the advance.

This is a major weakness with the RITA... which MUST be fettled if symmetry is to be achieved.

midnightlamp · Aug 9, 2014

Excactly what LAB said. Most other quality units that are similar to a boyer (Pazon, etc..) that are dist. drive/cam mounted use the same setup as well.

dynodave · Aug 9, 2014

midnightlamp said:
Excactly what LAB said. Most other quality units that are similar to a boyer (Pazon, etc..) that are dist. drive/cam mounted use the same setup as well.

????????? "quality units" "same set up"...vague...

sparx OK agree
pazon sure fire OK but ...

these are all dist drive/cam driven and not electromagnetic
these units not quality?
pazon altair, smart fire, true fire based on their pix I believe are hall pick up

Ol brits is IIRC optical

Trispark not sure, I will try and verify type with Steve Kelly

L.A.B. · Aug 9, 2014

dynodave said:
Trispark not sure, I will try and verify type with Steve Kelly

The Classic Twin is magnetic.
http://www.trispark.com.au/images/Class ... 202013.pdf
The Triple system uses hall sensors.
http://www.trispark.com.au/images/TRI-0 ... l%20V2.pdf

dynodave · Aug 9, 2014

Well a strong guess that the triple is optical. 3 lead pickup and rotating vane could be an opticoupler unless the vane has a magnet on it, which I don't see. hall more typically has 4 leads. IIRC optical interuptors could have 3 or 4 leads.

If I was just guessing I would think the under points twin unit would MORE likely be hall sensor because of the small package, but I'd not bet money on it. The 2 small magnets as shown, could turn on the hall at 180 degree cam intervals or 360 degrees engine.

L.A.B. · Aug 9, 2014

dynodave said:
Well a strong guess that the triple is optical. 3 lead pickup and rotating vane could be an opticoupler unless the vane has a magnet on it, which I don't see.

Hall sensors, not optical, I believe (I do have two of these Tri-Sparks although one is the earlier 'twin cylinder' sequential firing version soon withdrawn as it was replaced by the wasted spark Classic Twin system that I currently have on my Commando).

http://www.bbautomacao.com/home_hall_ef ... me301.html

The Hall Effect vane sensor BBHME301 is a non-contact sensor/switch, which consists of a monolithic integrated Hall Effect circuit and a special magnetic circuit hermetically sealed in a plastic package. The sensor is actuated by a soft-iron vane passing through the air gap between magnet and Hall sensor.

The same Hall effect sensor BMW used in their R series electronic 'Bean Can distributor' and K series bikes.

midnightlamp · Aug 9, 2014

dynodave said:
midnightlamp said:

Excactly what LAB said. Most other quality units that are similar to a boyer (Pazon, etc..) that are dist. drive/cam mounted use the same setup as well.

Click to expand...

????????? "quality units" "same set up"...vague...

Meant anything that uses coil pickups for the "same setup" and quality is a relative term here :wink: . I also wouldn't call them particularly quality, but OF those units the better ones all use twin coils (pazon, boyer, sparx for sure). The ones that I think use electro-mag pickups (but can't tell) such as the cheaper version of the tri-spark and the wassel ignition, also use twin magnets, likely for the same purpose.

I personally have not fitted anything but optical ignitions on any bike I've owned and wanted to keep, as I enjoy the stability of the timing and wouldn't want it any other way! I usually run powerarc's, and with the programmer as well it's a fun little toy to be able to fit to anything. I have had boyers and pazons, and more than a few well maintained points setups and would somewhat lump them all in the same category (a well serviced auto advancer and a well maintained point setup is actually quite stable (relatively) and works well).

SteveA · Aug 9, 2014

L.A.B. said:
As I understand it, using the combined signal from having both magnets pass the two linked opposed pickup coils provides an equal pulse every half-rotation of the Boyer stator, and thus it ensures the sparks occur exactly 180 degrees (camshaft, 360 crank) apart, therefore although the system is 'wasted spark' there can be no variation in the ignition timing between the two cylinders.

I since found captain nortons notes! which has the internal circuit of the Boyer, and although expressed very differently in the text I thnk it infers the same, noting the pulse from each trigger coil is a sine wave, positive and negative. Therefore it triggers when the potential difference between the positive and negative reaches the required threshold.

It makes sense to do this since it prevents any discrepancy in the mechanical/magnetic parts affecting the timing accuracy. Since you strobe time it the fully advanced figure, the timing should hold for both cylinders.

Clearly this neither works nor is needed when you have a crank mounted (360 degree) single pick up, so I assume the same box accepts a wide range of trigger coil impedance and iput signals and functions just with one.
Thanks

SteveA · Aug 9, 2014

PS....

I hadn't intended to open a debate on what was best, just trying to better understand how the Boyer works.

I think we are done on that. Thanks.

acotrel · Aug 9, 2014

I found the discussion interesting. I'm trying to find a way to reliably fire either a Dyna 3000 or MSD ignition module from the end of the commando cam. I already have the Boyer sensor system, and I still don't know what the sensor output should be for the other two types of module.

SteveA · Aug 9, 2014

acotrel said:
I found the discussion interesting. I'm trying to find a way to reliably fire either a Dyna 3000 or MSD ignition module from the end of the commando cam. I already have the Boyer sensor system, and I still don't know what the sensor output should be for the other two types of module.

Its interesting enough Al, just not what I was looking for.

I have a Maney set up just like the picture LAB posted. It has Norton Commando written on it, but clearly triggers well enough of the single pick up if crank driven. Which makes sense with LABs comments. I was trying to understand how the Commando kit worked, now I have a better grasp of it, and the difference with mine.

I would jonestly think with what you are trying to do you should think about a crank driven pick up with wasted spark, likely to be simpler with some potential performance benefit.

acotrel · Aug 9, 2014

Most of the programmable ignition units come with the type of crank driven sender you are using. The trouble is that I run a single row primary chain and manx racing clutch with a floating JAWA speedway sprocket on the crank. There is not enough room behind it. I've been looking at the Dyna D3K2-1 which is used on VT1100 Hondas. I 've read there is a cam located sensor, however I cannot see it on the websites. I've sent an email to Orient Express, so I should have the answer soon. I suspect my Boyer unit which fits where the points were might actually work. However the electronics are not easy to get info about. The Dyna unit is fully programmable and comes with 8 timing curves and the ability to retard at high revs.
The reason for the floating engine sprocket is the clutch and chain I'm using. The TTI box expects a commando clutch, so when you fit the older type racing clutch, the sprocket is 6mm to far out. I had a splined carrier made with the 5 degree taper to fit the crank. The engine sprocket self-aligns.

Hobot · Aug 9, 2014

So glad to hear someone else here has taken on the archives of Peter Aslan aka: Capt. Norton for old school Commando life style resource. Peter still posts to Brit Iron List often, on stuff we all face, new parts missfits to tracking electrical gremlins. Boyah magnet and coil trigger unit measures the voltage increase difference as rpm sweep rises to delay its spark adv curve, so shorting the trigger leads with a small resistance can increase the rate of adv such as racers might like existing turns they had to slow up for. Triumph engines don't seem able to take the steep spark adv of Nortons resisting detonation so that's the boyah baseline engine curve installed resistance can modify.

midnightlamp · Aug 10, 2014

hobot said:
So glad to hear someone else here has taken on the archives of Peter Aslan aka: Capt. Norton for old school Commando life style resource. Peter still posts to Brit Iron List often, on stuff we all face, new parts missfits to tracking electrical gremlins. Boyah magnet and coil trigger unit measures the voltage increase difference as rpm sweep rises to delay its spark adv curve, so shorting the trigger leads with a small resistance can increase the rate of adv such as racers might like existing turns they had to slow up for. Triumph engines don't seem able to take the steep spark adv of Nortons resisting detonation so that's the boyah baseline engine curve installed resistance can modify.

i've been reading peters notes for years and there are some real gems in there. My hat will always tip to someone who put that much effort to help others.

acotrel · Aug 12, 2014

L.A.B. said:
dynodave said:

Trispark not sure, I will try and verify type with Steve Kelly

Click to expand...

The Classic Twin is magnetic.
http://www.trispark.com.au/images/Class ... 202013.pdf
The Triple system uses hall sensors.
http://www.trispark.com.au/images/TRI-0 ... l%20V2.pdf

Does the older type Boyer use Hall sensors ? I've been wondering how different they are from the crank mounted sensors of the Dynatek (Harley type) module and those used on the Honda VT1100 Nippon Denso type.
Is this a Hall sensor ? :

http://www.saabranch.com/Cam-Sensor_p_10.html

http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/camsh ... r~pop.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itMXO56z1tw

dynodave · Aug 12, 2014

acotrel said:
Does the older type Boyer use Hall sensors ? I've been wondering how different they are from the crank mounted sensors of the Dynatek (Harley type) module and those used on the Honda VT1100 Nippon Denso type.
Is this a Hall sensor ? :

http://www.saabranch.com/Cam-Sensor_p_10.html
http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/camsh ... r~pop.html

Yes HALL see here:
http://www.bbautomacao.com/home_hall_effect_sensor_cyhme301.html

Good article:...first EM wave shape is exactly what the boyer does except the boyer is negative first THEN positive
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itMXO56z1tw

I have never seen a old analog black box MKIII boyer use a Hall. Strictly a double magnet, double-series coil electromagnetic. The RPM dependent expandable single sine wave required for the boyer circuitry however this principal is not demonstrated on the video . A single EM pickups like the crank mounted pickups work too. Actually a RITA EM pickup could be used on an analog boyer if pickup coil output trimming is done. The Rita type allows for uneven firing like ducati or guzzi by the angle of the rotor tips.

generally the sensor must be compatible to the internal circuitry type of the "box".

IF you want to review a hall sensor check Wikopedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall_effect_sensor
You will see the pix representing a 4 lead device, however in production practice it has been reduced to 3 by connecting the reference current low side with one of the conductor leads

acotrel · Aug 12, 2014

I suspect that the Nippon Denso ignition module used on VT Hondas will do as much as I need, and they are very cheap. My mental gymnastics have been about how to fire it off the end of the cam, rather than the end of the crankshaft. I'm going to have a look at the cam position sensors being used in the distributors of modern cars. The whole thing is cheap enough to play with. I don't believe the shape of the advance curve used in the VT Hondas would be unsuitable for a commando, especially as at present I am running fixed advance and it is pretty good. I've looked at the Dynatek 3000 and the MSD ignition modules on the web, - I would have the same problem with the sensors, and finding out it won't work satisfactorily could be expensive.

SteveA · Aug 13, 2014

acotrel said:
I suspect that the Nippon Denso ignition module used on VT Hondas will do as much as I need, and they are very cheap. My mental gymnastics have been about how to fire it off the end of the cam, rather than the end of the crankshaft. I'm going to have a look at the cam position sensors being used in the distributors of modern cars. The whole thing is cheap enough to play with. I don't believe the shape of the advance curve used in the VT Hondas would be unsuitable for a commando, especially as at present I am running fixed advance and it is pretty good. I've looked at the Dynatek 3000 and the MSD ignition modules on the web, - I would have the same problem with the sensors, and finding out it won't work satisfactorily could be expensive.

Ignitech his a much cheaper programmable system from the Czech Republic. €250 complete. They are quite popular in several applications in UK Classic racing and do kits for modern bikes.

Ignitech have fitted them to Commandos, but crank triggered. You could run one cam triggered if you triggered like a works Lucas Rita, single coil with precision 180 degree reluctor.

My plan is to move to one in the future.

Boyer Pick up

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