Better oil pumps?

Fast Eddie · Dec 8, 2013

Gents,
My bike has only done circa 20k miles from new (I believe) and I realise that the oil pump should be the best lubricated part of the engine!

Nevertheless, mine is quite a wet sumper, so I'm beginning to doubt the pump. I'm also a big fan of good pumps, I'm a believer in the benefits of increased splash for lubrication, and more so, cooling.

So, where does one buy the best pumps from? Are there updated pumps available? Or is a good stock pump the best option? If so, where are the 'good ones' to be procured from?

mike996 · Dec 8, 2013

I'd just do the resurfacing that Norton discusses in the shop manual and forget about it. A good resurface job will reduce the seepage to "as-new" levels but no gear-type oil pump can stop oil seepage if the reservoir is mounted above the pump. It's impossible for a gear-type pump in itself to provide such a seal.

The only way to stop it with the reservoir above is with some sort of valve...

Towner · Dec 8, 2013

wet sumping is no indicator for bad pump performance. Gear type pumps are usually reliable and have good performance.

olChris · Dec 9, 2013

Do you have the facility's to attach an oil pressure gauge to verify pressure.. Also peace of mind and worth the effort... instantly resolves heaps is unknown factors..

Fast Eddie · Dec 9, 2013

olChris said:
Do you have the facility's to attach an oil pressure gauge to verify pressure.. Also peace of mind and worth the effort... instantly resolves heaps is unknown factors..

Not at present Chris as the motor is stripped! The oil pump is just something that seems worth doing whilst its down already.

Hobot · Dec 9, 2013

To sound crazy to novices - the fact is that the only reason to use an oil pressure gauge on a Commando is to set the oil pressure bypass valve spring threshold to protect against over pressure supply not under fed. I like to see oil PSI too so will fit one on my special but not my pure factory Combat as Norton and original owners found out officially no PSI has to show at hwy speed to be perfectly fine as ever was - just as long as enough pressure to trickle into head, otherwise enough oil flows into-sucked into crank then sling pressurized-pumped out the big ends oil wedge surfing spray. Worse thing for a slow reving Commando is to let rpm drop below cam surfing on crank spray as sure ain't enough head drip down to do it. Most wet sump should happen on hot oil expanded metal clearance shut off. I think a good innate design to get cam oiled on first fire.

grandpaul · Dec 10, 2013

I always wondered if there was a "better mousetrap", but haven't seen one.

(queue somebody with a photo of an aftermarket Commando oil pump)

79x100 · Dec 10, 2013

The more recent Andover production pumps are really very good (more accurate than the original fitments).

I did once try a fairly expensive Nourish Racing pump. Supposedly the bees knees but it drained through fairly easily, even from new. He makes (or made) them for his Weslake engines.

Al-otment · Dec 10, 2013

Fast Eddie said:
olChris said:

Do you have the facility's to attach an oil pressure gauge to verify pressure.. Also peace of mind and worth the effort... instantly resolves heaps is unknown factors..

Click to expand...

Not at present Chris as the motor is stripped! The oil pump is just something that seems worth doing whilst its down already.

Don't forget the pressure relief valve too, strip and clean. On first start up after rebuild I think it's essential connecting an oil pressure gauge, tells you at what pressure the relief valve opens as well as indicating condition of pump. Should be approx. 15lb/sqin at idle (hot} to max. 55lb/sqin hot or cold as revs build. Adjust by adding/subtracting shims. Hopefully your using 20w/50.

Bernhard · Dec 11, 2013

mike996 said:
I'd just do the resurfacing that Norton discusses in the shop manual and forget about it. A good resurface job will reduce the seepage to "as-new" levels but no gear-type oil pump can stop oil seepage if the reservoir is mounted above the pump. It's impossible for a gear-type pump in itself to provide such a seal.

The only way to stop it with the reservoir above is with some sort of valve...

+1
There is/was at least one British motorcycle manufacturer that fitted a spring loaded ball valve to successfully prevent wet summing.

JimC · Dec 11, 2013

Al-otment said:
Fast Eddie said:

olChris said:

Do you have the facility's to attach an oil pressure gauge to verify pressure.. Also peace of mind and worth the effort... instantly resolves heaps is unknown factors..

Click to expand...

Not at present Chris as the motor is stripped! The oil pump is just something that seems worth doing whilst its down already.

Click to expand...

Don't forget the pressure relief valve too, strip and clean. On first start up after rebuild I think it's essential connecting an oil pressure gauge, tells you at what pressure the relief valve opens as well as indicating condition of pump. Should be approx. 15lb/sqin at idle (hot} to max. 55lb/sqin hot or cold as revs build. Adjust by adding/subtracting shims. Hopefully your using 20w/50.

I'm surprised about the 15 PSI @ idle with hot oil. I've never seen over 10 PSI @ idle, hot, even with new oil pumps. Mostly 5 PSI or less. When you say hot, what temperature are you referring to? A 10 mile boot down the highway at +75 mph will give you hot oil. Anything less will only warm the oil, say a temperature at the tank of less than 180 F.

olChris · Dec 15, 2013

hobot said:
To sound crazy to novices - the fact is that the only reason to use an oil pressure gauge on a Commando is to set the oil pressure bypass valve spring threshold to protect against over pressure supply not under fed. I like to see oil PSI too so will fit one on my special

" but not my pure factory Combat as Norton and original owners found out officially no PSI has to show at hwy speed to be perfectly fine as ever was - just as long as enough pressure to trickle into head,"

Click to expand...

otherwise enough oil flows into-sucked into crank then sling pressurized-pumped out the big ends oil wedge surfing spray. Worse thing for a slow reving Commando is to let rpm drop below cam surfing on crank spray as sure ain't enough head drip down to do it. Most wet sump should happen on hot oil expanded metal clearance shut off. I think a good innate design to get cam oiled on first fire.

WTF............. ??? Driving down the highway with no oil pressure is perfectly fine .. I dont believe you!!!!!

kommando · Dec 15, 2013

I would never try it but on Triumphs if the seal goes in the timing cover as long as the oil flow floods the crank inlet then the centripetal force at the big ends will drag the oil through the crank and there will be some pressure at the big ends, but the revs have to be right so at tick over I doubt it will work as the oil will not flood the crank inlet and the pressure will be marginal at other revs.

So the statement just about passes the BS test but only just.

Matt Spencer · Dec 15, 2013

The SEAL cant go on a Pre Unit .

Was reported in a almost reputable magazine , that the P R Commandos in the I.o.M. would centrifuge the OIL out as fast as it went in , hot . The oil pressure would read ZERO up near max revs .
This was ok for big ends , but the 75ish fancy pump was developed so that the guage would read correctly , and the valve gear would get their apportioned lot .

mike996 · Dec 15, 2013

Commandos have been running for many years w/o oil pressure gauges and with no issues, why do they suddenly need an OP gauge?

Matt Spencer · Dec 15, 2013

So you know if you dropped the rubber seal from the Timing cover on the floor , when you adjusted the Cam chain .

the OUTER , which is the TOP piece here , of the Triumph oil pressure indicator ( the little tit on the top protudes when pressures up )
from the pre units

screws right on the Norton relief valve . ( the inner bit - to case ISNT interchangeable ) So , if your tired of
kicking it into gear on a triumph , fit it to a Norton , where its not adjacent the gear lever end . :lol: if its NOT OUT , youve got
no pressure

. About the least expensive most simplest pressure fitting . wonder if the sell the end cup 7 button seperately . ?

Fast Eddie · Dec 15, 2013

Matt Spencer said:
The SEAL cant go on a Pre Unit .

Was reported in a almost reputable magazine , that the P R Commandos in the I.o.M. would centrifuge the OIL out as fast as it went in , hot . The oil pressure would read ZERO up near max revs .
This was ok for big ends , but the 75ish fancy pump was developed so that the guage would read correctly , and the valve gear would get their apportioned lot .

What is the "75 ish fancy pump" Matt? Is it a production item or a race dept job you're talking about?

lcrken · Dec 15, 2013

1975 MK3 Commando had different routing for bypass oil from pump, as well as different design rubber seal to timing cover. I don't think there was any internal difference in the pump, but I can't be positive.

Ken

Matt Spencer · Dec 15, 2013

Race .

Im sure we've all seen it before . :| But it s a Oil Pump ( theres a close up somewhere , but the clocks ticking )

There are limits , but its hard to have to much oil pump . 30 / 50 % reserve capacity should ensure reliability
with the industry standard 10 PSI per 1.000 rpm MIN. considered necessary , When used mecilessly tho not to
say abused .

Do these reliable jap bikes have 1903 oil pumps adoped from a ancestor ?

:?: To much is not enough on
a hot day at 100 + in deaf valley .

Should C.A.D. up a max dimension thing for in existing space , for Madass .

.

Rohan · Dec 15, 2013

So is that a yes or a no, Matt ??

Better oil pumps?

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