Are the clergy on the slide?

The latest entertainment is that a Helter skelter has been built in Norwich Cathedral; you would think that the bishops have nothing to do on a rainy day?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-en...athedral-helter-skelter-offers-new-experience

In a way this has been going on since the Dawn of Time. There is always the divide between hard line liturgy types and the Praise the Lord lets crank
up the volume crowd. After all we had The Reformation! There can be little doubt that congregations have seriously shrunken and no doubt the bishop is willing to try anything to keep the lights on.
I do find it a bit over the top but then Im old .

Just think of the outrage and backlash if this was installed in a mosque!
At best it is poor judgement at worst it is sacrilege - reality is probably between the two but it is offensive to many Christians - especially when reported as a simple novelty on National TV

Fascism, communism and religion are all authoritarian. - In western democracies, authority arises out of the voting process. Most churches are unelected.

acotrel said:

Fascism, communism and religion are all authoritarian. - In western democracies, authority arises out of the voting process. Most churches are unelected.

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The difference with religion is that people elect to be part of the authority - if you don’t want it then don’t elect to join!

...and if a member and you dont like the way it is going, down the road you go.

acotrel said:

Fascism, communism and religion are all authoritarian. - In western democracies, authority arises out of the voting process. Most churches are unelected.

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You seem to make no separation between religion and church. Religion is the movement of belief, which can't be authoritarian. The church on the other hand is the community of believers and submission to a church authority would be voluntary.

The difference between authoritarian regimes ruled by fascism or communism and the church: Suppression by force vs. submission by belief. That's why Hitler, Stalin and their heirs to this day fear the church.

-Knut

Bernhard said:

The latest entertainment is that a Helter skelter has been built in Norwich Cathedral; you would think that the bishops have nothing to do on a rainy day?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-en...athedral-helter-skelter-offers-new-experience

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Shocking poor judgement. With such leaders, where is the church heading? I agree with the Right Reverend Dr Gavin Ashenden, former chaplain to the Queen, who said the cathedral had made a "mistake". That's to put it mildly.

-Knut

Imagine the outrage if it was as I first thought when reading the opening line “ Helter Skelter “ - on this side of the pond “ Helter Skelter “ is mostly construed as mass murderer / demonic cult leader Charles Manson’s credo for his horrific crime spree - not an amusement park ride .

Once again - divided by a common language

Onder said:

...and if a member and you dont like the way it is going, down the road you go.

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Or you should at least relive one session of your childhood and try thee slide at least once, ( you would get to see close up the roof beams) before you walk out of the church with a smile on your face. . . . .

mdt-son said:

You seem to make no separation between religion and church. Religion is the movement of belief, which can't be authoritarian. The church on the other hand is the community of believers and submission to a church authority would be voluntary.

The difference between authoritarian regimes ruled by fascism or communism and the church: Suppression by force vs. submission by belief. That's why Hitler, Stalin and their heirs to this day fear the church.

-Knut

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So if you are a believer, you cannot be authoritarian ? I don't think that is correct. The Pope acts with the authority of Christ. Control is control however it occurs. In any given situation there must always be a balance between democracy and control. Self-actualisation is the highest level in Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

Pope John Paul once said 'with all this new-found democratisation, we must still recognise the authority of Christ'. The guy saying it was the one who acts with the authority of Christ, so what is the basis of his authority ? - 'I believe in Christ, so I act with his authority' ? In a democracy, authority comes through the vote.

acotrel said:

So if you are a believer, you cannot be authoritarian ?

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If by believer you mean believing in Jesus Christ and living by his commandments and living example, no you can't.

In John 13,34 Jesus says: "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another." And love is manifested by good deeds. This verse is preceded by the story of how Jesus washes his disciple's feet. Here he says in verse 12-15:
“Do you understand what I have done to you? You call me Teacher and Lord, and you are right, for so I am.
If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet.
For I have given you an example, that you also should do just as I have done to you."

So then, how can someone (i.e., follower of Jesus) who is called to be a servant and love his brethren through good deeds, also be authoritarian? Of course he can't if he is truthful to his master. This may be hard to understand by a wordly way of thinking.

In John 18, 33f Pilate interrogates Jesus. Here is an excerpt:
So Pilate entered his headquarters again and called Jesus and said to him, “Are you the King of the Jews?”
Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting,
that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”

Jesus had and resumed authority, but choose and choses not to be authoritarian. Herein lies a big secret!

acotrel said:

Pope John Paul once said 'with all this new-found democratisation, we must still recognise the authority of Christ'. The guy saying it was the one who acts with the authority of Christ, so what is the basis of his authority ? - 'I believe in Christ, so I act with his authority' ? In a democracy, authority comes through the vote.

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No, believing doesn't render the Pope authority.

What is authority? Authority is the right to exercise power, which can be formalized by a state and exercised by way of judges, appointed executives of government (i.e., the police, customs, the military), or the ecclesiastical or priestly appointed representatives of a God. (Citation of a Wikipedia article)

Authority is given to someone - usually a group of individuals - by appointment.

Thus, the vote does not cause authority to exist. Rather, it is the society's creation of laws, appointment of civil servants, and last not least society's submission to the laws and their servants which causes authority to exist. This is what creates a society. Anarchists and rebels do not recognize the authority of state officials nor the laws they exercise according to, because their goal is to replace it by a regime which is authoritarian and in which all inhabitants become slaves.

The Pope acts with the authority given to him by Jesus Christ when Jesus appointed Peter, one of his disciples, to head his church.
You may read the exchange and proclamation in Matthew 16, verses 13 to 19. What was the basis of his appointment? His testimony of belief and his submission to God!
The context is, Jesus asks his disciples what the people think about who he (Jesus) is. They respond to that. Jesus then asks: “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church ......" .

This is what renders the Pope spiritual authority, and the authority to preside at the church cabinet meetings. Does this give him control? Hardly, and the least in terms of believer's spirituality. How can he perform self-actualization when his mission is actualization of the presence of Jesus Christ ?

I am not a catholic by the way, but I still respect the Pope!

-Knut

'
And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church ......" .'

Do you realise there are only two references to risk management in the Bible ? This is one of them - the other is a religious law about sleeping on roofs without parapets. In Australia since day one, our workplace OHS laws were prescriptive instead of performance-based - until 1992. These days they are about minimising risk to a tolerable level. It is about democracy and control. If you write the Bible in every situation, you have complete control as long as you can enforce the commandments. Some people are happy with that sort of regime.

I believe the Pope is a force for good, but leadership should never be fully dependent on authority, when we live in democracies. Hitler's regime was an example of what that can become. In Australia, our politicians see themselves as being in positions of authority. Our current government was elected without a policy platform, so can act completely arbitrarily.

Are you seriously comparing the pope to Hitler?

That was not a comparison I was making. I was talking about authoritarianism generally. The Pope is benign, Hitler was never that. I have been told that the best form of government is a benign dictatorship. Personally, I like to be in control of my own life - to have the right to choose based upon ethical considerations.. The problem is that authoritarianism creeps. I look at China and I am horrified - that might be our future. Communism and Fascism are the same deal.

acotrel said:

That was not a comparison I was making. I was talking about authoritarianism generally. The Pope is benign, Hitler was never that. I have been told that the best form of government is a benign dictatorship. Personally, I like to be in control of my own life - to have the right to choose

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From what you have said about the current state of Australia, you don’t seem to have a great choice of options!