Another Tri-spark Failure

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The fact that Matt/CNW uses the Trispark on their CNW Nortons is a pretty good indication that it's an excellent unit and that any issues with it may be related to other aspects of the installation - related components, wiring/connections, etc. ;)
 
comnoz said:
There are two common failures in an electronic ignition like the Tri-spark.

One is failure of the actual junction in the transistor due to over current or voltage which heats the junction to the point of cascade failure. This is usually due to the wrong coil or over voltage from the charging system. This type of failure is abrupt and the unit is dead and will not operate again once it has cooled.

The type of failure I have seen more often with the Tri-spark [and other shake and bake ignitions] is the failure where it stops operating when it is hot -like after a shutdown and hot soak. This is a failure due to mechanical stress of the heating and cooling cycles. And yes the wrong coil or voltage may make the cycles more severe and cause this failure sooner, but basically due to expansion and contraction of the circuit board and components some connection opens up. It may be a connection inside the component itself or one of the hundreds of connections between the components of the circuit. This type of failure often works again after a cool down period.

So how do you prevent it?

You mount the heat producing components on a good heat sink away from the engine. If the
heat sink has good heat absorption and dissipating abilities the temp change of the component will be slow and the swing will be less. Then you will have a unit that will survive for a long time -as long as the current and voltages are correct.

Ignition coils that are mounted on the plug do not usually contain electronic components -beyond a coil of wire and several connections. And failure is very common. I replaced hundreds of them when I ran Jim's Auto.

An ignition like the Altair does have a single electronic component mounted in the points cavity. It is a Hall sensor [a transistor that changes state when exposed to a magnetic field] They do not generate any substantial heat on their own and with only a few connections are relatively free of heat induced failures.

The plug gap and coil wire resistance can also influence the life of the ignition driver. The higher the voltage goes before the plug fires, the higher will be the kickback voltage. The kickback voltage is the high voltage induced in the primary winding of the coil after the plug fires. That is why disconnecting a plug wire will often damage an ignition unit. The kickback voltage goes extremely high -possibly higher than the voltage rating of the drive transistor. The higher the resistance of the plug wire and plug and the higher the cylinder pressure, the higher will be the kickback voltage.
By the way, damage from high kickback voltage may not produce an immediate failure, but the damage may cause a failure on down the road.

So between units of the same build, why does one Tri-spark fail early and the next does not
-I don't know, luck of the draw maybe. [just like my luck at the casino -always bad]
Or maybe it's one or a combination of the things I mentioned above. Jim
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Thanks, for the clear explanation, Jim. I'm pretty sure your description of the second type of failure explains what happened to us. The Altair will be mounted in a cooler location with some air flow. It will also have some sort of anti-vibration mounting.

I've tried a number of ignition systems in Nortons over the last 47 years, including Boyer, Sebring, Rita, Accell, both Joe Hunt mags and ARD (both points style and electronic) mags, and of course the stock points, and now the Tri-spark. Of those, I've had failures in two Boyers, one Rita, both styles of ARD mags, and the Tri-spark, as well as a couple of cases of Lucas coil failures. My takeaway is that it must not be that easy to build truly reliable and low maintenance ignition systems for Nortons:D.

Ken
 
lcrken said:
Thanks, for the clear explanation, Jim. I'm pretty sure your description of the second type of failure explains what happened to us. The Altair will be mounted in a cooler location with some air flow. It will also have some sort of anti-vibration mounting.

I've tried a number of ignition systems in Nortons over the last 47 years, including Boyer, Sebring, Rita, Accell, both Joe Hunt mags and ARD (both points style and electronic) mags, and of course the stock points, and now the Tri-spark. Of those, I've had failures in two Boyers, one Rita, both styles of ARD mags, and the Tri-spark, as well as a couple of cases of Lucas coil failures. My takeaway is that it must not be that easy to build truly reliable and low maintenance ignition systems for Nortons:D.

Ken
Click to expand...
Have you tried elektronik saches?
The reason I ask is because when I bought a t160 from Germany a few years ago I was surprised to see it was fitted with this type of ignition that I had never heard of
So I posted the question on "triples online" asking about the system and reliability
And I had people message me from around the globe saying problems were unheard of
Most people I've spoken to in the UK have never heard of it so I suspect that not anywhere near so many units have been sold as say Boyer, trispark etc
But if it is that good maybe it's worth a try
Cheers
 
lcrken said:
Thanks, for the clear explanation, Jim. I'm pretty sure your description of the second type of failure explains what happened to us. The Altair will be mounted in a cooler location with some air flow. It will also have some sort of anti-vibration mounting.

I've tried a number of ignition systems in Nortons over the last 47 years, including Boyer, Sebring, Rita, Accell, both Joe Hunt mags and ARD (both points style and electronic) mags, and of course the stock points, and now the Tri-spark. Of those, I've had failures in two Boyers, one Rita, both styles of ARD mags, and the Tri-spark, as well as a couple of cases of Lucas coil failures. My takeaway is that it must not be that easy to build truly reliable and low maintenance ignition systems for Nortons:D.

Ken
Click to expand...

I know that for sure. Building and tuning fuel part of the EFI system on my bike was a lot easier than making the ignition unit work dependably and getting it tuned. It has only been the last few years that I stopped carrying spare ignition parts in my luggage.

Now I just carry a Tri-spark, for other people...
 
I’ve had 2 sachse fail in Ducati singles.
Any dramas with Pazon ?
20 + thousand miles and never touched it an my mk3

Graeme
 
Baz ,
The box literally blew apart on one and the other just stopped. Had one repaired by the new Sachse owner Mario which is still working ok.
The other went in the bin. I reinstalled the original 1974 Ducati electronic ignition, piss poor spark bit it doesn’t let me down.

Graeme
 
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750 Fastback, Trispark fitted 3/8/2015, replaced after 7400 mile 17/1/2016. I was dealing with Steve Kelly at Trispark and he was very helpful. Steve supplied me with some temperature tape which I fitted to the 2nd disc. 26/2/2016 the 2nd unit failed after 1800 mile, the temperature tape indicated 107 degrees celsius. The maximum rated temperature for use of the unit is 100 degrees celsius. This occured on the Omeo Highway Victoria in summer where heat can be drawn down from central Australia and can reach 45 degrees celsius. I "field tested" this second failure when it started to cut in and out by continuing to ride the bike until it cut out completely. The unit tested faulty at Trispark, the first unit tested OK at Trispark but was not "field tested". Steve told me that the silicon in the unit cracks when over heated. 6/6/2016 3rd unit replaced after 7800 mile with Pazon Altair which kicks back when trying to start the bike but runs reliably once eventually started. Steve supplied me with a unit that was modified for the high temperatures but this also failed. The Trispark that I want was made in 2007 (I think), one batch of 50 with the electronics mounted under the seat, then discontinued. Good luck Icrken.
 
Altair isnt suppose to kickback. I have two and they tend to do this. Again run fine once you get it started.
 
MexicoMike said:
The fact that Matt/CNW uses the Trispark on their CNW Nortons is a pretty good indication that it's an excellent unit .. ;)
Click to expand...
Doesn't mean much.
Nice bikes, but more for show than riding.
Check out the average mileage of their "pre-owned" bikes.
 
ludwig said:
Doesn't mean much.
Nice bikes, but more for show than riding.
Check out the average mileage of their "pre-owned" bikes.
Click to expand...
Ludwig what is your opinion on the elektronik saches ?
 
ludwig said:
Doesn't mean much.
Nice bikes, but more for show than riding.
Check out the average mileage of their "pre-owned" bikes.
Click to expand...

If you are saying that a CNW Commando typically doesn't get ridden often enough/hard enough to "stress" the TS, that may be true. However, CNWs reputation is such that it is difficult to believe they did not do whatever due diligence in choosing an ignition system for their bikes. I can't think that they chose the TS with the idea that since folks may not ride their CNW Nortons hard, it was OK to build them with a problematic ignition. ;)

Further: IF the TriSpark reliability is as poor overall as it would appear from posts here, they would have been out of business years ago. Yet more and more companies seem to be carrying their ignitions.

OTOH, I agree that if the TS is rated for 100C as a max temp, that sounds rather low. Although I have never had a points cover so hot that water would sizzle on it, as Justin pointed out, his, at 107C, was. Do Norton's generally run hotter in the points compartment than other Brittbikes?

But if that's so, I would assume my Norton, operating only in Mexico, would almost always be running quite hot, as opposed to when it lived in NY. In NY and it's first two years of the 13 it's been in Mexico it had the OEM ignition which I installed after removing a troublesome Boyer.
 
It's hard to draw any conclusions here
Some have no problems at all
Others have one failure after another
Heat has been blamed, heat cycling etc
It'd be nice to know how many have been sold, what the failure rate is
What charging system
What country/temperature etc etc
High mileage or low use bike
 
baz said:
Ludwig what is your opinion on the elektronik saches ?
Click to expand...
No experience , no opinion.

MexicoMike said:
I agree that if the TS is rated for 100C as a max temp, that sounds rather low. Although I have never had a points cover so hot that water would sizzle on it..
Click to expand...
Yes, but how hot does the rotor at the end of the camshaft get?
It radiates its heat directly into the Trispark.
 
never looked at what temp is in the points compartment on a norton or any other bike for that matter .but i have seen the failspark troubles on BSA's also. as to my failures i did vent my cover with slots in the front and rear in the hopes to help it run cooler but that was also a wast of a nice cover. it is still an over priced POS IMHO.

MexicoMike said:
OTOH, I agree that if the TS is rated for 100C as a max temp, that sounds rather low. Although I have never had a points cover so hot that water would sizzle on it, as Justin pointed out, his, at 107C, was. Do Norton's generally run hotter in the points compartment than other Brittbikes?
Click to expand...
 
I found this interesting:

"Installing an electronic ignition is the first day you start upgrading you motorcycle's electrical system." Your experience, especially when it comes to reliability, is dependent more upon your motorcycle's electrical system than the brand electronic ignition you choose. We sell Boyer, Pazon, Vape, Sparx and Tri-Spark and when adjusted for sales nearly the same level of reliability. I would say that our "real" failure rate where the unit returned actually doesn't work runs about 1% across the board.

All electronic ignitions are only as reliable as your electrical system. If you do not have a good healthy battery, a voltage regulator that is not leaking AC, a regulator that is regulating voltage where the voltage will not spike over 17 volts, a rectifier that is not leaking AC, a wiring system where the fuse holder isn't corroded, switches are not high resistance from corrosion of poor contacts, connections that aren't broken or corroded, and real proper grounds, and coils that are are withing the ohm range specified by the maker of the ei, and you don't ground the wire coming out of the box feeding the coil, you electronic ignition will be very reliable. Most of the failures can be traced back to high voltage or too high current draw from a grounded wire or coil with the improper resistance. And your charging system has to keep up with the current being used to enable the battery from sulfating. Yes, you can sulfate a battery riding your motorcycle when the charging system cannot keep up with use.

A simple thing like a battery terminal coming loose will cause a voltage spike that can render an ei unit toast.
A coil that has suffered an internal short in the primary winding can render an ei toast.
Grounding the coil feed wire coming from the control box WILL render the ei toast.
Swapping the wires around on the control box as a test can render the ei toast."

Any/all of the above could account for the failure's experienced. Points/AAUs don't have the potential problems, of course. :)
 
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