Another Tri-spark Failure

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Wondering if it possible to put some kind of filter in the line to protect the unit?? I have two bikes with the Tri-spark, one installed in 2007 and one in 2008 and have never had a problem. Or if the newer regulators already have this built in? I do worry about the failures people have had, it's real concerning to me. I guess I need to look at other options or remove one of them and carry as a spare, your thoughts.
 
Hortons Norton said:
Wondering if it possible to put some kind of filter in the line to protect the unit??
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A zener diode and a capacitor works great to take out those spikes and ripples.:)

I use a 10,000 mfd 16 volt capacitor with a 16v 3 watt zener across it. It is on the switched power wire.
 
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The old blue can cap, perhaps. We've been warned in another thread that series style regulators have the potential (pun) to create high voltage spikes. Probably a good idea to avoid those. I've been chasing electrical gremlins this year that quite possibly contributed to my Trispark's demise. Got it all solid now, but I might put an oscilloscope across the battery just for grins.

Solid grounding is obviously paramount.
 
Yes, that sounds right, I think I recall that name being on the post. I'm not familiar with his name or the company.
 
MexicoMike said:
I found this interesting:

"Installing an electronic ignition is the first day you start upgrading you motorcycle's electrical system." Your experience, especially when it comes to reliability, is dependent more upon your motorcycle's electrical system than the brand electronic ignition you choose. We sell Boyer, Pazon, Vape, Sparx and Tri-Spark and when adjusted for sales nearly the same level of reliability. I would say that our "real" failure rate where the unit returned actually doesn't work runs about 1% across the board.

All electronic ignitions are only as reliable as your electrical system. If you do not have a good healthy battery, a voltage regulator that is not leaking AC, a regulator that is regulating voltage where the voltage will not spike over 17 volts, a rectifier that is not leaking AC, a wiring system where the fuse holder isn't corroded, switches are not high resistance from corrosion of poor contacts, connections that aren't broken or corroded, and real proper grounds, and coils that are are withing the ohm range specified by the maker of the ei, and you don't ground the wire coming out of the box feeding the coil, you electronic ignition will be very reliable. Most of the failures can be traced back to high voltage or too high current draw from a grounded wire or coil with the improper resistance. And your charging system has to keep up with the current being used to enable the battery from sulfating. Yes, you can sulfate a battery riding your motorcycle when the charging system cannot keep up with use.

A simple thing like a battery terminal coming loose will cause a voltage spike that can render an ei unit toast.
A coil that has suffered an internal short in the primary winding can render an ei toast.
Grounding the coil feed wire coming from the control box WILL render the ei toast.
Swapping the wires around on the control box as a test can render the ei toast."

Any/all of the above could account for the failure's experienced. Points/AAUs don't have the potential problems, of course. :)
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You make some good points, Mike. On the other hand, I would expect any high end EI to be designed with proper input power filtering and limiting, and at least some open and short circuit protection on the output side.

In my case, I've pretty much eliminated most of the possible causes you list above, so I still think it's most likely just overheating. But, I can't be sure without a lot more testing, and I don't want to spend the time it would take to do that properly. I'm more interested in just replacing a suspect system with one that doesn't seem to have so many reports of failure. We have a couple of longer rides coming up, and I'd rather not have to worry about the TS. Of course, if we now start to see problems with the Pazon, I might really get paranoid. I guess the real answer would be to install two systems, one crank triggered and one on the end of the cam, and some way to switch between them on the road. But that still seems like overkill to me.

Ken
 
Once I get the mill set up I'm going to have a go at milling vent slots in a scrap timing cover to allow air into the rotor area beneath the EI plate... we'll see how it goes!
 
I carried a spare Boyer on long trips for 30 years. Had to use the spare pickup plate once in that time, due to a fractured wire. I now carry a spare Tri-Spark, but if the need for it arises on the road sometime I'll likely fit something else in its place. What that would be, I can't say right now. Though I know it won't be one of those optical triggered jobbers one of our members is having issues with.
 
lcrken said:
You make some good points, Mike. On the other hand, I would expect any high end EI to be designed with proper input power filtering and limiting, and at least some open and short circuit protection on the output side.

In my case, I've pretty much eliminated most of the possible causes you list above, so I still think it's most likely just overheating. But, I can't be sure without a lot more testing, and I don't want to spend the time it would take to do that properly. I'm more interested in just replacing a suspect system with one that doesn't seem to have so many reports of failure. We have a couple of longer rides coming up, and I'd rather not have to worry about the TS. Of course, if we now start to see problems with the Pazon, I might really get paranoid. I guess the real answer would be to install two systems, one crank triggered and one on the end of the cam, and some way to switch between them on the road. But that still seems like overkill to me.

Ken
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If I were to run a production ignition system on my bike, and I may when I replace the points on my MK3, I would use a tri-spark because of it's superior starting and running and then to eliminate heat I would first do some ventilation and then insulate the module from the engine case.

Then to eliminate the heat produce by the module I would just use the module to trigger a remotely mounted ignitor. Then there would be no load on the Tri-spark module and the heat would be produced in the ignitor mounted away from the engine. A 7 pin HEI module works as an excellent ignitor and will drive any coil or coils down to .5 ohm with ease. Plus if it were to ever fail it is readily available cheaply at any auto parts store.

And yes, that is what I use for an ignitor on my bike. The difference would be the timing and dwell on my bike is controlled by the fuel injection system where as with a tri-spark module the tri-spark would control the dwell and timing. Jim
 
comnoz said:
If I were to run a production ignition system on my bike, and I may when I replace the points on my MK3, I would use a tri-spark because of it's superior starting and running and then to eliminate heat I would first do some ventilation and then insulate the module from the engine case.

Then to eliminate the heat produce by the module I would just use the module to trigger a remotely mounted ignitor. Then there would be no load on the Tri-spark module and the heat would be produced in the ignitor mounted away from the engine. A 7 pin HEI module works as an excellent ignitor and will drive any coil or coils down to .5 ohm with ease. Plus if it were to ever fail it is readily available cheaply at any auto parts store.

And yes, that is what I use for an ignitor on my bike. The difference would be the timing and dwell on my bike is controlled by the fuel injection system where as with a tri-spark module the tri-spark would control the dwell and timing. Jim
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That's a clever scheme. In fact without the Tri-Spark dissipating any heat it might not be necessary to isolate it and cool it externally. The early HEI modules were dumb, and used vacuum and centrifugal advance. How do you simulate the pickup coil input to it?
 
The 7 pin module has inputs for both the vr sensor in the distributor and a ESC input from the spark control computer. You would use a pullup resistor to keep the module in bypass so it only uses the ESC input. Then you would feed the output from the Tri-spark into the ESC input. I suspect another pullup resistor would be needed at that point. When the HEI module is in bypass it is nothing but a high current amplifier.
I have not tried this with a tri-spark but I have used the HEI module with several other inputs -even points.
I will have to try a setup with the trispark to make sure the pullups are the right value but I suspect 1000 ohms would work.

I would only isolate it and cool it to keep it from the wild temp swings of the engine. I have a temp probe that I have screwed in in place of a timing cover screw near the points cavity. My engine does see extreme use but I have seen 350 degrees F there more than once.
 
I don't know if this has helped with cooling my Trispark or not, no problems in 6 years now

but I have installed the recommended very thick insulating gasket between the timing and points cover
and I have had slots cut in the for and aft sections of the points cover for ventilation

Matt at CNW has been wonderful to work with on this, and everything else
I have gotten from him through the years of course.
 
In the time we have been selling them, one returned because the owner had too great a gap from the rotor to plate, and another that was returned apparently not working. I could not swap it into my bike as the back plate had been screwed on so tight it distorted the back plate. Returned to Steve and it was not faulty.
Not sure where these are being used, but I have run mine in 39C and had no issues, and it has covered another 12K miles since then. Considering how many retailers sell them, I suspect sales are far greater than Pazon these days.
As for the Altair, we have have just scraped and binned our last one as we know it would be a warranty problem, that is why we no longer sell them, just the standard version and TS.
As for the MK3, maybe Jim could utilise the slot in the crank, and mount a sensor in the blanking plug aperture in the RH case and build an EI system from there - just thinking.
 
acadian said:
Once I get the mill set up I'm going to have a go at milling vent slots in a scrap timing cover to allow air into the rotor area beneath the EI plate... we'll see how it goes!
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Is that a new Avatar? it's nice anyway.

Rather than milling the timing cover which seems to have been tried before without success, (for testing) how about sandwiching a disc of aluminium between the points cover and the timing case as a heat sink and see how it holds up?

Cheers,

cliffa.
 
The more I read here, the more I lean towards the view that all production motorcycle EI systems have their failure risks. It sounds like whatever system we end up with, I should consider buying a second one to carry as a spare for any extended rides.

At one time on the Production Racer I used a fixed advance points system with ball bearing for the points cam and Bendix aircraft style points. The points were used to switch a dual channel Accell ignition amplifier. It worked very well on the race bike, but the fixed advance could be a real problem for kick starting (or for the MK3 e-start) on a street bike.

I also noticed that there was quicker wear on the stock points rubbing blocks in race bikes than in street bikes, presumably because of the extended high rpm use.

Ken
 
Boyer MK1, after too many failures they went to a separate box. Below it you can see the aluminium ring that lifted it off the timing cover and gave 2 slots for air.

Another Tri-spark Failure
 
cliffa said:
Is that a new Avatar? it's nice anyway.

Rather than milling the timing cover which seems to have been tried before without success, (for testing) how about sandwiching a disc of aluminium between the points cover and the timing case as a heat sink and see how it holds up?

Cheers,

cliffa.
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New avatar yes, thanks!

As for the ventilation, I have a finned aluminium points cover mounted directly to the timing cover with no intermediate gasket, my thinking is this will enable a little better heat transfer.

I'd not seen/heard of ventilating the cover, do you have a link?

Anyway, wondering instead if the trispark plate itself could be slotted? Combined with a vented points cover, maybe this would give the heat a better escape route?
 
Whoa! Wait a minute! I would most humbly request that Madnorton explain why it was decided the Altair was going to be a warranty issue. Is this a story we are supposed to already know about? I find that comment quite interesting in light of the present conversation. I've been running the Surefire and it has not failed me as my two Tri Sparks did in a short period. I've always been curious about whether the Altair was more finicky.

As for where these are run. My Tri Sparks failed running them in Alaska in temps cooler than most people think of as motorcycle weather. While I admit that getting nice and hot inside the points cavity is a potential issue, I'm pretty sure mine failed due to the coils I was running (stock). This has been argued to death and I'm not here for a debate on it today. I would see chronic heating in the points cavity as a long term problem. Short term, I think it is the rest of the system the EI is exposed to that makes a big difference in longevity.

PS - You threw your last Altair in the bin?!!! I'd of been happy to run it without warranty just to see if lasted longer than my last Tri Spark! It would actually be good data to have.
 
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