Another Tri-spark Failure

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My guess is that the ones that are ridden harder and/or longer distances are more likely to fail.

The reason more of them are failing, I believe, is that there are MORE OF THEM (relatively) than in years past. The higher the installed base, the higher the raw rate of failures. It takes many YEARS to begin to detect a pattern of failure and more significantly a failure rate/percentage.

Boyers have typically gotten the worst rap, but I'm guessing it is based on the sheer NUMBER of them out there. After all, they were the only game in town for what, 20 or 30 years?
 
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Haven't experienced a failure yet, but curious if anyone has thought to mill some slots into the timing cover itself rather than the point cover? In the area just beneath the pickup plate? Wouldn't this be where one would want more airflow?
 
Perhaps overlooked. I reckon due to the low current draw of modern ignitions any line resistance can cause failure. First thing I do is unplug and plug all the accessible connectors a few times to clean them. So far its worked and the old girl has fired up. I now gum the connectors up with electrolyte grease (old age set in, is that what its called?) Touch wood 6 years without a hitch.
 
For reference Ken, what coil system are you using?

I'm using the coil supplied by Tri-spark for use with this unit (dual output resin encapsulated with 3.5 ohm primary resistance).

Also, using non-resistive copper core plug wires with resistive ends supplied by Tri-spark.

Low voltage wiring is new with connections made with Tri-spark supplied connectors. All connections are clean and tight, with no signs of corrosion (bike is garaged when not being ridden). Bike had a complete new Andover wiring harness installed when we built it back in 2015. Handlebar control containing kill switch was also new in 2015.

Engine is mildly built 883 cc and does tend to get ridden "vigorously", but doesn't seem to be getting excessively hot, i.e. not smoking and crackling when stopped.

Ken
 
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Haven't experienced a failure yet, but curious if anyone has thought to mill some slots into the timing cover itself rather than the point cover? In the area just beneath the pickup plate? Wouldn't this be where one would want more airflow?

Yep. But ugly.
 
Perhaps overlooked. I reckon due to the low current draw of modern ignitions any line resistance can cause failure. First thing I do is unplug and plug all the accessible connectors a few times to clean them. So far its worked and the old girl has fired up. I now gum the connectors up with electrolyte grease (old age set in, is that what its called?) Touch wood 6 years without a hitch.

The stuff I use is Dow Corning Compound 4, a silicone based grease used to waterproof electrical connections (as well as other uses).

Ken
 
Umm, no. Copper's temp coefficient is positive ... +0.393% per degree.
Seeing it in print again... You're correct, I was incorrect and wonder then if the mu metal permibility changed when hot caused this effect?
 
Seeing it in print again... You're correct, I was incorrect and wonder then if the mu metal permibility changed when hot caused this effect?

Only after the curie point, but that's pretty durn hot ...

I've used mu-metal as magnetic shielding - do they use it as core lamination in coils too?
 
Sorry Nigel - 40 years as an EE sometimes can't be suppressed.
 
You at the back- what is A + B?!

What... eh... me... errr... 12 sir...

Once, severely bored, sat at the back, I decided to emblazon my text book with a very artful BSA logo.

Trouble was, I was so focused on the artful design, I put BAS...
 
We had two guys at the back who were failing Calculus, last names Nuemann and Miller. They spent their time whacking each other over the head with books, slide rules etc. That might have been why they were failing.
Teachers comment-
" Mr. Nuemann , you might as well be selling Chryslers in Baghdad"

" Mr. Miller, you might as well lie in a ditch and let the grass grow over ya"
 
Only after the curie point, but that's pretty durn hot ...

I've used mu-metal as magnetic shielding - do they use it as core lamination in coils too?

I would change the cores which were made wrappped on a shaped form to suit. The lamination were extremely thin like tissue paper but ferrous based. You could peal the layers off one at a time. Had to swap them out if the rise time was NG. Sometime the lot yeild from the vendors was low. Probably not traditional mu shielding metal.
 
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I'm using the coil supplied by Tri-spark for use with this unit (dual output resin encapsulated with 3.5 ohm primary resistance).

Also, using non-resistive copper core plug wires with resistive ends supplied by Tri-spark.

Low voltage wiring is new with connections made with Tri-spark supplied connectors. All connections are clean and tight, with no signs of corrosion (bike is garaged when not being ridden). Bike had a complete new Andover wiring harness installed when we built it back in 2015. Handlebar control containing kill switch was also new in 2015.

Engine is mildly built 883 cc and does tend to get ridden "vigorously", but doesn't seem to be getting excessively hot, i.e. not smoking and crackling when stopped.

Ken
Have you checked the R of the plug caps? I was running very rich on one cylinder ad it turned out the supposedly 5k NGK cap from TS was about 67k!

Not sure if the TS would fail in the reported manner if say there was very low R in one of both caps.
 
Interesting Jim. ‘Mechanical’ failure of internal comments due to thermal expansion isn’t something I’d thought of to be honest. Just for ref, and without getting into specific temps etc, my coil reference is an example I hold up just to try and demonstrate how electronic components have changed over the years, coils used to be oil filled and have to hang in the breeze, and they’d still fail! Nowadays they’re tiny, and buried deep in the hottest part of the engine.

Anyway, back to the heat topic: what kind of electrical related things can influence the heat inside the EI unit? Can different coils create more or less heat? Differences in wiring, or wiring issues, switches, etc? HT leads, plug caps, plugs used?


So, what I’m wondering is why do some units fail and some don’t. Moreover, why do some
people suffer multiple failures and others zero?

Surely something is causing different internal conditions ??


There are two common failures in an electronic ignition like the Tri-spark.

One is failure of the actual junction in the transistor due to over current or voltage which heats the junction to the point of cascade failure. This is usually due to the wrong coil or over voltage from the charging system. This type of failure is abrupt and the unit is dead and will not operate again once it has cooled.

The type of failure I have seen more often with the Tri-spark [and other shake and bake ignitions] is the failure where it stops operating when it is hot -like after a shutdown and hot soak. This is a failure due to mechanical stress of the heating and cooling cycles. And yes the wrong coil or voltage may make the cycles more severe and cause this failure sooner, but basically due to expansion and contraction of the circuit board and components some connection opens up. It may be a connection inside the component itself or one of the hundreds of connections between the components of the circuit. This type of failure often works again after a cool down period.

So how do you prevent it?

You mount the heat producing components on a good heat sink away from the engine. If the
heat sink has good heat absorption and dissipating abilities the temp change of the component will be slow and the swing will be less. Then you will have a unit that will survive for a long time -as long as the current and voltages are correct.

Ignition coils that are mounted on the plug do not usually contain electronic components -beyond a coil of wire and several connections. And failure is very common. I replaced hundreds of them when I ran Jim's Auto.

An ignition like the Altair does have a single electronic component mounted in the points cavity. It is a Hall sensor [a transistor that changes state when exposed to a magnetic field] They do not generate any substantial heat on their own and with only a few connections are relatively free of heat induced failures.

The plug gap and coil wire resistance can also influence the life of the ignition driver. The higher the voltage goes before the plug fires, the higher will be the kickback voltage. The kickback voltage is the high voltage induced in the primary winding of the coil after the plug fires. That is why disconnecting a plug wire will often damage an ignition unit. The kickback voltage goes extremely high -possibly higher than the voltage rating of the drive transistor. The higher the resistance of the plug wire and plug and the higher the cylinder pressure, the higher will be the kickback voltage.
By the way, damage from high kickback voltage may not produce an immediate failure, but the damage may cause a failure on down the road.

So between units of the same build, why does one Tri-spark fail early and the next does not
-I don't know, luck of the draw maybe. [just like my luck at the casino -always bad]
Or maybe it's one or a combination of the things I mentioned above. Jim
 
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This is like being back at school... listening to the clever kids discussing the finer points of detail with the teacher... while I stare out of the window at passing cars and wonder where they are going...
Mostly I tried hard to stay awake by looking at girls in class ..... but sure is nice to learn the finer details on these mods we do to our beloved Norton’s !
 
I too have been running Tri spark systems as supplied by CNW with the single coil and Matts plug wires both the 71 and 72 have never given me a minutes worth of trouble. I have a “set and forget” experience on both my bikes ? I’d rather be lucky ......
 
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