Another Tri-spark Complaint

Status
Not open for further replies.
But, they should have been like that from the very beginning.

Exactly, tested long term and then offered to the paying public.

The problem with a product like this is the installer of said product is an unknown ability wise as is the condition of the machine it is being fitted to.
Dodgy old wiring looms, coils of unknown Ohm rating etc etc.

I also had looked at the Tri-spark units but even without reading anything online review wise, the electronic components in the AAU cavity was a no go for me even if it works fine these days, why they persist in that location is beyond me.

I was curious enough to retrieve my password from the Pazon website to see what I had spent in the mother country, NZ$1684.32 apparently.
It is what it is and have read very few bad comments about the Pazon products but would assume the basic concept circuit wise is similar on all of the units available no matter the manufacturer.
 
Pazon Sure-Fire.
Interesting. And what differences have you noticed? How was installation going back to a box to find a space for?
I'm considering my options, 4 year old TS and about to go on a weekend away. I'm thinking minimal spares with the option later on to change EI or buy a new TS and use the old as a spare.
 
I also had looked at the Tri-spark units but even without reading anything online review wise, the electronic components in the AAU cavity was a no go for me even if it works fine these days, why they persist in that location is beyond me.


The Classic Twin wasn't the first Tri-Spark ignition, but I don't think it can be denied that it did have a significantly higher failure rate than their previous Tri-Spark external box ignitions (and I have two of those) almost certainly as a result of the location of the electronics in the points cavity so except for the easy installation of the Classic Twin module the majority of failures, cost of warranty replacements, further development and testing could have been avoided if it had an external box so was it was really worth the trouble?
 
Sold loads of both TS and Pazon Surefire, only two TS returned, one was a customer who tried fitting ACW unit to an Atlas and the other was a case of where the rotor was too far from the plate. So don't see an issue with either, it would not bother me which I use. Even my old Boyer lasted over 21 years before the dreaded wire break, but even that was fixed and still working when I replaced it with a TS.
Some wiring I do see on bikes when out and about is shocking, this would not help anything you fit. Electric is easy to master, just like drinking beer, keep the electric in the wire and beer in your glass and all is happy, spill either and it gets upsetting.
 
I'm very curious about the frequency and correlates involved in the failures that are being reported. I'm currently running 3 tri spark units (commando, TR7, T120) and have had no issues, but am not betting on luck of the draw. Maybe we could ask Jerry to start a thread for this issue? I think if we could pool data from different users regarding their individual set ups maybe we could identify what's going on, at the very least it may help Tri Spark identify problem set ups.

I'm running all my units with dual output coils (2 dyna's and one accel), charging systems are up to snuff, all three are directly wired (bypassing all kill switches etc.), all related wiring is well insulated, I have a small pieces of foam under the points covers to keep the vibes down, and I avoid spark testing (plug on head)

Good idea to pool all available info on these failures. My Trispark systems have all been the later type with the self-test facility. I went through a very lengthy correspondence with Steve Kelley via email, with at least one email per day over a 3 week period, during which Steve had me carry out test after test and answer question after question, all of which intended to rule out other possible faults (eg: with my bike's electrics). Fair enough to do that, of course. But I did find it frustrating to have to repeatedly respond to the same questions (I told him at the start that there is no kill switch in the picture on mine, yet I was asked to check the kill switch wiring several times).

My bike has its original main harness which is in surprisingly good condition. The front end has been changed due to using different handlebar switches. This work was done by a professional auto electrician and is top quality. It has a Lucas 3 phase alternator with a Podtronics type regulator/rectifier. It has Trispark's own coils. The wiring to/from the coils / Trispark module is duplicated, ie: in order to rule out any issues within the original wiring, I ran wires direct from the coils to the module.

All the wiring is exactly as per Trispark's instructions. All of Steve Kelley's tests were carried out (repeatedly) and Steve eventually conceded that the fault must be with his module. He sent me a free replacement and I bought another (at half price) to carry at all times, having lost confidence in them.

Steve asked me to send the failed module back and I said I would if he'd cover the postage. He didn't, and I still have it. There is a small blister on the outside face of the encapsulating material at about 7 o'clock. It seems pretty clear that something inside got far too hot. This is the one that failed first, with virtually no warning (the engine spluttered and stopped, just as if it had run out of petrol). There was an occasional, very weak spark after that and with repeated kicking, the engine might occasionally fire just once.

That's about it. The second one didn't actually pack up completely, it just began malfunctioning as if the timing had slipped (it hadn't, not in any mechanical sense anyway - I think it did electronically). I recognised the symptoms from the first failure (it had sounded and felt a bit retarded for maybe 10 miles before it suddenly failed completely). I fitted the third one at that point and stuck the malfunctioning one behind the side panel as an emergency spare (I was again on my way to southern France so couldn't come up with anything better).

I have seen on other forums, Triumph twin owners who have had similar repeated failures and who have tried various things such as placing a mica heat insulating disc between the module and the timing cover housing, and making air vents in points covers - all to no avail, apparently.

I know nothing about electronics but I can;t help suspecting that miniaturising whatever normally goes in a separate 'black box' to the point where it all fits into a points plate size disc, is asking for trouble.

I'd be interested to know whether anyone has been successfully using one of these 'Classic Twin' Trispark systems for 20000 miles or more.
 
That’s a very interesting ‘report’ and it would indeed be great to get to the bottom of your failures.

How long has the 3rd one been on for?

I know next to nothing about electronics either. But, regarding your suspicion about miniaturising whatever is in the cover, and also to the point about heat... coils used to be big oil filled things that had to be mounted in the breeze and still failed from time to time. Coils on modern engines are built into the plug cap and buried in the engine.

I know we’re not talking about coils here, but I raise it as evidence that electronics have clearly moved on a lot in recent years.

It would be great if some electronics boffin on the forum volunteered to take your failed unit and do a proper autopsy on it.

Any takers?
 
I have seen on other forums, Triumph twin owners who have had similar repeated failures and who have tried various things such as placing a mica heat insulating disc between the module and the timing cover housing, and making air vents in points covers - all to no avail, apparently.

Until a related wiring/electrical fault can be positively identified, excessive heat sounds like a reasonable place to start.

I can't see how venting the points cover would help though, as it seems like the heat problem is under the stator itself. Maybe venting through the timing cover itself? A few holes drilled into the cover just under the stator flange?

Just spitballing here...
 
Surely if it was heat there would be more of a trend? Failures would be more common overall and failure numbers would be skewed towards hot climates.

Based on the few posts from those with problems, this doesn’t appear to be the case.

Heat can be both cause and effect. My thinking is that it is effect, something is burning out due to an electrical issue rather than ambient temperature in the point housing causing that kind of temperature issue.

However, I am only stabbing wildly in the dark here.
 
Surely if it was heat there would be more of a trend? Failures would be more common overall and failure numbers would be skewed towards hot climates.

Based on the few posts from those with problems, this doesn’t appear to be the case.

Heat can be both cause and effect. My thinking is that it is effect, something is burning out due to an electrical issue rather than ambient temperature in the point housing causing that kind of temperature issue.

However, I am only stabbing wildly in the dark here.

I get your thinking, in that case, a vented points cover would alleviate the problematic "effect" of heat generated by the TS unit?

I'm also considering Comnoz's tests revealing that higher oil levels in the timing chest correlate to higher temps in the timing chest, and suggesting relocating the oil drain hole (which I've done)
 
I get your thinking, in that case, a vented points cover would alleviate the problematic "effect" of heat

Actually, my thinking is the contrary... if an electrical issue is causing something to overheat due to internal load / current then venting the points cavity as much as you like ain’t gonna make any difference.

Tigernut says that people had tried venting the covers “all to no avail”... which I read as supporting my theory that failures are not due to ambient temps in the points cavity.
 
I agree! Surely if the TS could not stand up to the heat, my TS, installed in '08, would have failed years ago. But, like the energizer bunny, it just keeps going...and Going...and GOING. ;)
 
Well we do not know the cause of these random failures, the only clue is it seems to repeat on the same machines.

As for the lesson of wheel invention, paying attention to previous failures would help.

Early Boyer



Another Tri-spark Complaint



and after the issues with heat the points cover standoff giving free movement of air in and out plus drain for oil

Another Tri-spark Complaint


But they still ended up going for the remote mounted box.

Electronics have moved on with heat resistance but there will still be outliers about the mean and no doubt engines that are just that bit hotter than others.
 
Ludwig is a high miler with a lot of Norton knowledge.
I seem to recall that he gave up on tri-spark some time ago, but I can't find that old post, maybe it was deleted.

Glen
 
I suspect that there is a perfect combination of coils and resistor plugs/wire/caps that create longevity for TS ignitions. But testing all of those combinations and comparing them to systems that have had failures would be quite an undertaking. The charging systems may or may not play a role.

Seems to me that we need a data base of what people are running that have had good success so that others might try to duplicate it. It would not be that hard to build a data base of both failures and successes (so far) and see if a trend develops. But it would require TS users to participate with mileage and accurate details.

As an aside, if you run an electric motor on low voltage you will over heat it due to increase amperage. Is there any correlation to low voltage and how this might influence amperage in an electronic ignition?
 
dyno dave did an autopsy on one of mine that failed. i am surprised he has not chimed in on what he found.
 
When it gets hot the bike would quit and not start until it cooled off or the extra stator was installed.
Tri-spark coils, bought at same time.
It never ceases to amaze me how people can continue selling a flawed product.

Well 99 replys and no answer found? Not surprising...
OK I'll chime in since Bill asked me to. Though I don't have the final answer either.
What I found on BIlls trispark is only to confirm what I suspected which is a general failure mode, and not the pin point reason.
The output drive transistor was bad. Probably died of heat exhaustion.

IN 40 years in high power and high voltage radar and industrial electronics, and significant schooling and practice in mechanical area, you start to pick up on things.
One laser like focus of my field is a study in heat control. I would first consider this in any electronics failure. If you can't control the temperature of the components, then it is only a count down to eventual failure. Improper component selection for the job, improper packaging ie potting thermal coefficient, thickness, and physical, thermal and electrical environment all play a role. Some of this the designer/maker has no control. Unfortunately it must be designed to be completely above all unknown external variables...tough job sometimes...

I fully believe it is possible to design an EI to sit inside the cam end housing of the 20M3S+ engine. Heat from the close-by RH exhaust pipe, of course, to be considered.

Finding out there is a problem with a design is definitely a problem for the consumer as well as the engineer/maker/business man. He would have two problems, back seat largely uneducated consuming public who are not really up to the separate but challenging isolated technical remedy. They understandably complain about the financial loss, which the business man partially or wholly shares. The consumer only tangentially share with the data collection searching for a technical product cure.

Work (time or money) to get a good new product design, then the maker has to worry if some one will steal their design. Sometimes it is not worth being in business!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top