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Zinc oil additive

Discussion in 'Norton Commando Motorcycles (Classic)' started by Foxy, Nov 26, 2010.

  1. Foxy

    Foxy

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2009
    Gday all, already theres been numerous threads about what oils best for our motors. Heres a product that could be of some benefit seeing it increases the zinc content which adds to the lubrication of the valve train/camshaft etc. of flat tappet motors. You be the judge.
    http://www.lucasoil.com.au/content/view/16/122/
    Foxy
     
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  2. nortriubuell

    nortriubuell

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Hello Foxy, thanks for the info !!! I'll be using it my next oil change. Cheers !
     
  3. hobot

    hobot

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Too much or not enough Zn+P gives similar effects, more wear and corrosion.
    Around 1200 ppm of each is what to look for. Zn does not from the "polyphosphate "pads of protection until oil temp is in 200'F range and under HIGH Pressure. Zn layer only binds to Ferric alloys. Aluminum is not hard enough to form protective layer and neither is un-hardened steel. Zn layer rubs off fast in cold starts and does not reform to matter until temps and pressures allow it to replace itself. Dedicated assembly lube is needed on first turn overs.

    Moss Motors has a nice British engine oriented one.
    http://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProd ... exID=79920
    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    My first car was '65 Chevy Corvair air head boxer, see what they learned.
    http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Corvair_oil.pdf

    Extra credit to read and comprehend the main points mentioned above.
    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_q ... n21372645/
     
    xbacksideslider and robs ss like this.
  4. DogT

    DogT VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2009
    Now you tell me. I know it's going to blow up the next time I start it. I put Valvoline straight 50W in it, like honey. I did use some assembly lube but not Zn.

    Dave
    69S
     
  5. hobot

    hobot

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Well DogT the way I look at break in- [ugh bad term, I prefer - Run In-] is engine is most likely to have crap to flush out and you want pressure to come up quick and oil to reach everything fast, and with rings un seated for blow by putting carbon and combustion products in the oil - I use a hi detergent diesel oil 10-40 non synthetic and change it out after first warm up. On new cam its more important to keep rpm up around 2000 over 20 min for hydrodynamic oil layer separation than the additive package for metal to metal protection. There is a conflict of seating rings vs surface finishing lifters on cam. Rings seat best if not getting so hot the metal ridges gall-smear over than just bust off flat topped. That means short fairly hi load blips a couple of minutes then shut off to cool and repeat on longer intervals for 15-20 min. I dust bores with Bon Ami cleaning powder or you can buy similar stuff from TotalSeal now and do like Chevy did in early 50's to fix ring smoking on new cars. I wet bore with wd40 as its not a lube and flashes off on first combustion for dry ring 'break in' but holds the powder on better. Bon Ami in your oil will only polish up stuff, never scratch it and not enough to bother anything piling up in sump if left to settle over weeks before 1st oil change. I'd give cam 'run in' the priority so start up and blip up loads and rpm to 2000-4000 range. You can't hardly get engine to full operating temps in still hot air just blipping unloaded as ain't burning much fuel. A fan is comforting to the builder though. Too timid a break in is said to dull engine for rest of its life : (
     
  6. hobot

    hobot

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    I came to my diesel oil conclusion before I came across back up of my rationalizations while looking at oils I had on hand for old tractor and mower and truck and not much moola left or patience to wait on specialty oil shipping.

    http://forums.noria.com/eve/forums/a/tp ... 3011052071
     
  7. maylar

    maylar

    Joined:
    May 13, 2007
    Interesting chart.. I've been using Valvoline VR1 "Racing Oil" on recommendation of an experienced Brit engine builder. No numbers listed in the chart for that.

    Edit: I did a bit of Googling on VR1 and found an extensive thread on a Corvette forum. Valvoline quoted zinc/phos
    .130/.120 (1300 ppm/1200 ppm) for the VR1.
     
  8. ewgoforth

    ewgoforth

    Joined:
    May 23, 2010
    I tested at 1345 ppm zinc for the VR1 monograde. 20w50 Valvoline motorcycle oil tested around 1500, although both sample sizes were a bit small. I contacted Valvoline and they were surprised by this, they said the VR1 should have higher zinc. For what it's worth, the phosphorous tested higher in the VR1, and from what I've read the phosphorous portion of ZDDP is what's supposed to protect the parts:

    You can check my used oil analyses at:

    http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2007205#Post2007205


    Here's what Valvoline had to say about my oil analyses:

    Thank you for writing. That is very interesting to see the motorcycle oil exceed the VR1 Racing Oil in the ZDDP category. The Valvoline 4-Stroke Motorcycle Oil is formulated with only approximately 1120 to 1200 ppm of Zinc and only approximately 1000 to 1050 ppm of phosphorus from our plant level. The VR1 Racing Oil products on the other hand, are listed as our highest content ZDDP oils with approximately 1400 ppm of Zinc and approximately 1300 ppm of Phosphorus, so we are concerned that you are getting this increased amount on your analysis. Obviously this would not be a problem with extra ZDDP additives, however Valvoline would like to get some batch numbers from the containers if you would be willing to share those, so that we could refer back to the retain samples taken for each product you have, to verify the measurements for these additives prior to leaving the site of formulation.
    You are correct in the understanding that the phosphorus is the most important of the two (Zinc / Phosphorus), as it provides the best antiwear properties. Our other question about the facility that did the testing analysis for you. We would encourage our customers to use a facility that was ISO 17025 A2LA Accredited to ensure the most accurate results for any testing of motor oils.



    Interestingly, Blackstone Oil Lab's owner tested oil without any zinc (Aero Shell) in a flat tappet small block chevy and posted the oil analysis on their website. His surpising conclusion were that ZDDP wasn't really necessary. I can provide that pdf if you'd like. I can send you a link, but it's a link straight to the pdf file, he doesn't appear to have a link on his website.

    -Eric
     
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  9. rick in seattle

    rick in seattle

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2009
    Ya got to love these oil threads. In the late 70's the hot oil used in Porsches (air-cooled, flat tappet engines) was Shell Rotella, because of the Zn and P additives; spirited use required changing at 1500 miles, which I followed religiously. I've been using it in my classics, cars and bikes, since then. However, having pondered Alan Goldwater's articles in the NOCNC Norton Notice concerning oil temperatures in the late 90s (only synthetics, and in fact, only Redline survive 2000 miles with their film strength intact), I've stopped running Rotella in my Brit bikes, and switched to Redline. One reason that these oil threads keep reappearing on this forum is that the oil landscape keeps changing in response to changing EPA requirements. Rotella may well lose its ZDDP content to be compatible with emission controls, and it was never designed for the 141C head temperatures our Nortons achieve at a steady 75 mph on a 32C day (Goldwater's data). I see that Rotella is offering a new synthetic now, so I may have to eat my words; Rotella T6 may indeed hold its film strength at our temperatures, but its 5w40 spec seems a bit thin for our use in the summer. Since Redline devotes itself to the high-performance, hi-tempertature extremes of automotive lubrication, I've decided to simply stick with them; it's too exhausting to do otherwise.
     
  10. ewgoforth

    ewgoforth

    Joined:
    May 23, 2010
    Based on my tests, I don't think there's any reason to use monograde oil, but go for it if you want to. Andover Norton's site says that multigrade oils can break down in less than 1000 miles, but I didn't see anything like that. That might have been true in the 60's or 70's. I've heard that Brian Slark has said the main reason Norton changed their oil recommendation was because they were concerned about oil consumption.

    I didn't have any viscosity problems with 20w50 conventional Motorcycle oil, and the flash point was quite high after 1100 miles, I think you could probably safely go 2000 to 2500 miles with a good conventional motor oil. I'm planning to do some more tests, probably with a synthetic (in the past I've mostly used Mobil 1 15w50). Most of my riding these days is on the highway, which I think contributes to the good oil analysis. I suspect that short trips, around town are much harder on the oil and engine.

    -Eric
     
  11. Foxy

    Foxy

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2009
    Thanks for the informative replys. The mind boggles, a good read that chart Hobot and Eric findings. Low ash level (residual after its burnt) in an oil is desirable aswell, less contamination and not so much an ugly black color at service! I dont ask for much?!
    Foxy
     
  12. mike996

    mike996

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2006
    You can find "data" to support any side/opposite sides of an oil/additive argument. Do whatever makes you happy and be comfortable knowing that you can justify it by finding data that agrees with you. You can find data that says multiweights suck and that multiweights don't suck; that additives like zinc/Phos are necessary and that they are unnecessary; that oil has to be changed every 3000 miles and that it doesn't; that engines should never be broken in with syn oils and that it doesn't matter. You can find all this and more on sites that all claim to be authoritative, from oil company sites to engine builder sites to vehicle maker sites. Jiffy lube says "change every 3000 miles; My Porsche manual said "change every 15000 miles."

    Do what you want, believe me, there's "authorative data" to agree with you! :)
     
  13. robs ss

    robs ss VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2016
    So as not to further contaminate (pun intended) the Cam & Follower thread with oil & additive discussion I searched and found this old thread.
    I made contact with Lucas Australia/NZ questioning how much additive they recommend per litre of oil for my application
    The reply was - it depends on how much zinc you want. 120ml will boost 2.5l of oil by 2000ppm (which appears a bit high from the chart they sent me - see below)
    This is consistent with Hobot's reply (#2) above
    Cheers
    Rob
     

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  14. CanukNortonNut

    CanukNortonNut

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2005
  15. robs ss

    robs ss VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2016
  16. CanukNortonNut

    CanukNortonNut

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2005
    Actually thank Fullauto. I got this from his thread.
    do a search for Norton's and they will have what you seek.
    Cheers,
    Thomas
     
  17. marinatlas

    marinatlas

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2007
    I will use , next time , their enduro 25w70 , it is available in France, and far less cheaper than Redline ........
     
  18. SteveA

    SteveA VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2011
    W
    Where from?
     
  19. marinatlas

    marinatlas

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2007
    Hello Steve , here is the place I will order them from, they are the sole distributor for France , and seems to have the full Penrite range , IMHO the enduro 20W70 seems a good choice, and far cheaper than the Redline which available here to Garage Varinot , but they had only the 20w50 in std (cars) choice which is not the motorcycle one .........! https://www.alpdiffusion.com/marques/penrite.html
     
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  20. SteveA

    SteveA VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2011
    But take care Pierre, it seems Penrite oils are available in Synthetic and Mineral, I think this one is mineral. You can buy a Penrite V twin 20w50 in England which is Synthetic! And of course more expensive.

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Penrite-...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
     
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