WTF now

cliffa · Mar 20, 2022

So yesterday afternoon I spent a pleasant afternoon finishing off my winter refresh. The last item was to install Ollie's improved oil non return valve. Member ntst8 had very kindly loaned me his specially made M17 taps. Apparently the valve can be installed with the timing cover in place, but I (luckily) opted to remove it for better access and to check the cam chain tension. The thread cutting and valve install went swimmingly with plenty of grease on the taps to capture the swarf...

Then on to the cam chain tension. Wow, that's pretty tight I thought, but then looking closer I spotted something strange and alarming. See if you can see what I mean. I've put the picture on Google Drive so you can zoom in.

Voodooo · Mar 20, 2022

It appears all the chain rollers are ground flat from missing the plastic shoe. Did they install two lower chain sliders??? Imagine how the cylinders and bearings may look.

TonyA · Mar 20, 2022

WOW I see. What is in the drain hole at the bottom of the timing case ? Also is there a problem with the main bearing or is that just an illusion ? OMG ! Two lower adjusting shoes ! You can't make this up ! Could this have been a third party repair not Donington Norton ?

cliffa · Mar 20, 2022

Voodooo said:
It appears all the chain rollers are ground flat from missing the plastic shoe. Did they install two lower chain sliders??? Imagine how the cylinders and bearings may look.

Yep, but I'm really puzzled how that can happen. The chain must be so tight that the rollers are not rolling, but is that possible? My top tensioner looks different to the picture in your post Voodooo, so I guess Norton redesigned it? The one shown in the manual looks the same as mine, and I don't see any plastic slider. There was no sign of any silver in the bottom of the timing case. I've drained the oil and will pull the exhausts and sump filter to take a look, but as soon as I saw this yesterday I packed up all my tools and walked away in frustration.

Tony, It wouldn't have gone back to Donnington as far as I know, but as it's an early bike who knows it's history. I suppose I should be grateful I spotted it before the rollers started to disintegrate.

I'll strip it further tomorrow and post some more pics as I go on.

Boss302 · Mar 20, 2022

cliffa said:
Yep, but I'm really puzzled how that can happen. The chain must be so tight that the rollers are not rolling, but is that possible? My top tensioner looks different to the picture in your post Voodooo, so I guess Norton redesigned it? The one shown in the manual looks the same as mine, and I don't see any plastic slider. There was no sign of any silver in the bottom of the timing case. I've drained the oil and will pull the exhausts and sump filter to take a look, but as soon as I saw this yesterday I packed up all my tools and walked away in frustration.

Tony, It wouldn't have gone back to Donnington as far as I know, but as it's an early bike who knows it's history. I suppose I should be grateful I spotted it before the rollers started to disintegrate.

I'll strip it further tomorrow and post some more pics as I go on.

I suspect you will be replacing the damaged chain. Can one be found? Must be a standard chain type anyway that can be fit for the application. I'm curious about the oil non return valve. I'll search for a thread on that.

lcrken · Mar 20, 2022

cliffa said:
...My top tensioner looks different to the picture in your post Voodooo, so I guess Norton redesigned it? The one shown in the manual looks the same as mine, and I don't see any plastic slider. ..

Some interesting, if confusing pictures from the service manuals, specifically an early OEM service manual from Norton (00 Norton Manual), the EURO4 Update service manual, and the most excellent service manuals provided by Richard Coote.

Pictures common to both factory manuals

From the 00 Manual only

From the EURO4 Update Manual Only

From Richard Coote's Manual

Confusing, eh? It looks to me like Cliffa has the earlier style tensioner, while Voodo has the later style. I suspect the EURO4 manual still has some pictures of the earlier style because Norton didn't bother to change them when they updated the manual.

But that's just my best guess. Mmaybe there's someone on the forum who know when the change was made.

Ken

cliffa · Mar 20, 2022

Many thanks for this Ken. It's very baffling to me how a roller can only wear on on side and stay in that orientation.

I wonder if I can get an upgraded quality IWIS chain like on the classic Commando's ? I'll have a measure up tomorrow and contact the Jason the chain man.

Voodooo · Mar 20, 2022

I’ve noticed that my 2016 Commando has a ink date stamping on the inner case. What years are Euro 3 and 4?

cliffa · Mar 20, 2022

Voodooo said:
I’ve noticed that my 2016 Commando has a ink date stamping on the inner case. What years are Euro 3 and 4?

According to this confusing site, Euro 3 2006 ( for motorcycles) , Euro 4 2015

European emission standards - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Fast Eddie · Mar 20, 2022

I can’t work out what would stop the rollers from turning.

Would a ‘bow string tight’ chain do that?

How about if tis out of alignment? I could imagine the plates ‘pinching’ the rollers then.

Seems to me that you’d ‘Better Call Ollie’ …

Voodooo · Mar 20, 2022

cliffa said:
According to this confusing site, Euro 3 2006 ( for motorcycles) , Euro 4 2015

European emission standards - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So then I have a Euro 4 bike.
So what year is Cliffa and who knows when the sliders were changed to a different design?

Fast Eddie · Mar 20, 2022

Voodooo said:
So then I have a Euro 4 bike.
So what year is Cliffa and who knows when the sliders were changed to a different design?

What year is your bike Scott?

Norton used all the loopholes to delay implementation of these measures.

Perhaps best to look for Euro 4 features.

Need someone who knows more to chip in as to what they are, but I’m thinking the charcoal canister? The tip over sensor? ABS?

cliffa · Mar 20, 2022

Voodooo said:
So then I have a Euro 4 bike.
So what year is Cliffa and who knows when the sliders were changed to a different design?

Mine's a 2011.

Voodooo · Mar 20, 2022

Fast Eddie said:
What year is your bike Scott?

Norton used all the loopholes to delay implementation of these measures.

Perhaps best to look for Euro 4 features.

Need someone who knows more to chip in as to what they are, but I’m thinking the charcoal canister? The tip over sensor? ABS?

My Commando and Domi are both 2016. The 10th letter / number in the vin on both of my bikes is a “G” noting a 2016
Neither of my bikes have ABS.
Only my Domi Naked has a charcoal canister, the Commando does not.

What’s also odd is according to the old Norton factory only 24 Domi Naked bikes were made and said they were 2017 models with ABS. I know of 4 Domi Nakeds in the USA and none had ABS.

Perhaps I have a early model Domi.

cliffa · Mar 20, 2022

Boss302 said:
I suspect you will be replacing the damaged chain. Can one be found? Must be a standard chain type anyway that can be fit for the application. I'm curious about the oil non return valve. I'll search for a thread on that.

Sorry missed your post. Yes Ollie Thiel in Germany has most parts available, but the chain should be easy to source anywhere really. It looks as though there was an updated to the tensioners, hopefully he has those.

Home

www.thiel-motorsport.de

Not much info on the non return valve, however the one that Norton fitted is tiny and must be a restriction in the oil flow, hence the larger valve.You can see the difference here..

961 Birthday

Valve guides are cast iron, no appreciable wear on them or the valve stems. Rocker bushes - these were easily removed, and i am told could be reinserted with hand pressure :oops:. Must have been very close to the rockers turning on the bushes rather than the bushes turning on the spindles. Ollie...

www.accessnorton.com

Stu Bodycote · Mar 20, 2022

Wow!
Just looked on the bill of materials, and at time of going belly up, the 54 link cam chain was supplied by iwis, in Germany. The later spec nylon tensioner blocks were made by Ritchie Engineering in the UK.
Euro four came out late 2017.

Stu Bodycote · Mar 21, 2022

Voodooo said:
My Commando and Domi are both 2016. The 10th letter / number in the vin on both of my bikes is a “G” noting a 2016
Neither of my bikes have ABS.
Only my Domi Naked has a charcoal canister, the Commando does not.

What’s also odd is according to the old Norton factory only 24 Domi Naked bikes were made and said they were 2017 models with ABS. I know of 4 Domi Nakeds in the USA and none had ABS.

Perhaps I have a early model Domi.

Yes 2016, and if a factory Naked then your 6th character should be a K

Stu Bodycote · Mar 21, 2022

Fast Eddie said:
What year is your bike Scott?

Norton used all the loopholes to delay implementation of these measures.

Perhaps best to look for Euro 4 features.

Need someone who knows more to chip in as to what they are, but I’m thinking the charcoal canister? The tip over sensor? ABS?

ABS is the one to look for. If it has ABS then its Euro4. No ABS, Euro 3 or MSVA. With regards the 961 at least. V4's were all MSVA'd as it wasn't homologated.

cliffa · Mar 21, 2022

Stu Bodycote said:
Wow!
Just looked on the bill of materials, and at time of going belly up, the 54 link cam chain was supplied by iwis, in Germany. The later spec nylon tensioner blocks were made by Ritchie Engineering in the UK.
Euro four came out late 2017.

Thanks Stu, good to know that it was a quality chain initially.

Do you know if the sprockets are on tapers ? ( puller required ?)

Stu Bodycote · Mar 21, 2022

Ooh now your asking. Just keywayed from memory...but its been a while since I've had to remove the cam sprockets, and its also 6:30am so I'm still half asleep lol
Can't say for initial quality, as the bill of materials I have is at time of closure.

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