Which ignition for my Mark 3? ...so many choices

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pkeithkelly

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I have seen the warnings several times - don't run the old-style Boyer analog electronic ignition in an electric start Mark 3 Commando.

It was on the bike when i bought it 5 years ago, and was probably there 20 years before that, so it has lasted well, but ......

OK, I just destroyed sprag clutch, and I am convinced - time to put in an electronic ignition that won't eat sprag clutches when the battery voltage is low, as the analog Boyer unit is prone to do.

I am looking for a solid recommendation, as there are several options out there.

(I currently have a Sparx 3-phase alternator, with their regulator/rectifier unit, and 5K ohm resister plug caps, or wires (don't remember which)).

My top 3:
Boyer Micro Power, which includes coils. Cost = approx $275 US
Tri-Spark Cost = approx $330 US
Pazon Smart Fire Digital , includes coils Cost = approx $430 US
Pazon Altair Cost = approx $270 US

I know that OldBritts is now selling one from "Power Arc" and that Sparx makes one, which is really cheap at $130.

My first inclination is go with the Boyer Micro Power kit. The company and its products have stood the test of time, and the price is very competitive.

Anybody think I should buy one of the others? Why?

PS - I have a new twin Dyna coil sitting in a box, not yet installed, which I would not need if I bought the Boyer Micro Power, or could install with the Tri-spark, if that's what I buy.

Regardless, I will have to shell out $200 for a new sprag clutch, again (AAAARRRGGGHHH!)

Thanks
 
I was the in the same boat when I bought my MKIII, as it originally had a boyer on there. It worked fine, but did not want to keep testing my luck. I decided on the power-arc from oldbritts as the kit contained everything I needed, and had good support. I also liked how the wires were not contained inside the cover where heat could potentially be a factor. I installed the power-arc with the JS Motorsport flat slide carbs to really update the bike, and all I can is it really transformed the bike. Setting the timing was super easy, and even after strobing it with a timing light, it did not need any adjustment.

After a while I decided to ditch the electric starter and installed a block off plug as I wanted to clean up the bars, and moved to a more modern master-cylinder which eliminated the right side switch. Its a 1-2 kick bike when it is dead-cold, and fires right up with a half kick when its warmed up.
 
Do an advanced search on Boyer ignition systems....I have one on my 850 Commando and it will be replaced with a Tri-Spark or a Pazon. Based on the Boyer that I have and the numerous problems that are chronicled on this forum, I don't understand how they remain in business. Some people swear by them while a lot of folks swear at them, including myself....
Make your own decision and don't make your choice on strictly what system is the cheapest to buy.

Again this is just my opinion.
 
pkeithkelly said:
My top 3:
Boyer Micro Power, which includes coils. Cost = approx $275 US
Tri-Spark Cost = approx $330 US
Pazon Smart Fire Digital , includes coils Cost = approx $430 US
Pazon Altair Cost = approx $270 US

You forgot to mention the very high-quality Pazon Surefire....very reasonable cost and it's truly "Set and Forget". Transformed my bike.


and that Sparx makes one, which is really cheap at $130.

Run Away!!!!! Run Away!!!!!!!
Click to expand...
 
I have a Boyer installed in my Bonnie and I couldn't be happier, the bike's a first or second kicker every time. However it's not a Commando which I believe needs a different advance curve.
Have a look here, I can't remember where I found this, but it could have been from this site :D

Which ignition for my Mark 3? ...so many choices
 
I've tried Boyer, Trispark and Pazon Altair.
Boyer, which was a very early model, never really set the world alight. Was very rough at idle and not very smooth on the curve.

Trispark was great. Easy set up, good idle and smooth advance. The problem that I had with it was when it got very hot it would intermittently stop working till it cooled down. Then would fire up again no problems. Steve was very good with changing the units under warranty, was just a pain sending them back to him and having pay to excise duties.

I now run the Altair and coupled with the JS flat slides is fantastic. 1st kick start, instant idle, and a advance curve to leave a big smile on my face taking of from traffic lights and showing the young boys what 40 year old Brit iron can do with no hesitation or misfiring .

IMHO Pazon Altair all the way....... :)
 
+1 on the Altair, his system offers the nice advance curve, with a blip at idle revs to stabilise the idle. Smatfire is dearer with tuneable advance, but probably overkill for a standard bike.
I replaced a working Boyer on my MK11 850, I found the engine was lumpy and flighty at idle and just above, so it jiggled a lot at these speeds and this made it uncomfortable at idle and above, until the iso's took over at 2500rpm. The Altair transformed this for me, on my bike :lol:
The system is has nice hardware and you can use your existing coils or your AM one if you wish with the supressor caps. I purchased some original style coils of Pazon, as the originals were 30 something year old. The box mounts up on the coil tower, if you gut out the old capacitor pack and other stuff not in use.

Cheers Richard
 
PowerArc is a great set up, so simple to set up. You get two different curves also. Check out Old Brits video on it. Have two other friends that have them and threw away their Boyers.
 
That is exactly they way I'm planning on going with my MKlll jsedacca, glad to here the feedback. I love this forum, it can take out a lot of the guess work or trial and error and save $$$'s too. Cj
 
Pazon shows the best retard setting for starting with the least chance of kickback, which is your biggest fear for your sprague.
The graph doesn't say which Pazon but I have a Pazon Sure Fire that their web site says maintains a good retard setting even when the battery is well below 12V.
Sure Fire is cheap and I'm very happy with mine. Will idle nice down to 600RPM with single Mikuni VM.

Which ignition for my Mark 3? ...so many choices
[/quote]
 
It's your choice as far as EI goes and the remainder here is a wee bit O/T...
Any kickback, either during E-start or kicking is a problem generator, all the elements of the E-start are engaged when the crank rotates in the wrong clock direction. The gear ratios are not in your favour even if the ball clutch is properly adjusted.
A failed sprag caged element assembly can damage the inner and outer races as well. Something to look at too.
The sprag caged element assembly itself can be had for much less than US$200.- , it's a fairly common industrial product than has been misapplied to the MKIII. Check Formsprag at a local industrial bearing supplier. DC4127(c3), wholesale US$71.- each + s&h on 10-03-2011.
The inner and outer races are specific to the MKIII, can be had from many A/N suppliers as well as A/N themselves directly, and if dimpled, should be replaced for longevity of the E-Start function. Warranty reportedly can be an issue if not purchased as a set of inner-outer-sprag. The races are difficult to repair properly and economically so new is best however expensive.
If functional originality is of no importance one could omit the sprag caged element assembly and simply kick to life, the remainder of the E-start drive train may stay in place just for looks. I hope you keep it all original and functional.
There is a fellow poster who occasionally boasts of having an El-Cheapo replacement for the sprag element. We have not seen his sprag and he has been silent on this subject of late. Search him up and bang on him, maybe he has the cheap solution after all.
All the best.
 
Being a long time Boyer user, I just installed a Pazon SureFire on a customer's bike and it seems to be a real nice unit.
I've had an old Boyer on my MKIII for many years now and about 30K miles with no issues at all, original sprag and I use the electric starter all the time. I even took off the kickstart arm for a long time. I think the problem is that Boyer says to set the timing at 31 degrees and that is too much. I always set them at 28 degrees and have never had an issue.
Just my 2 cents.
 
AntrimMan -

Thanks for the tip about the Formsprag unit. I found it online at Warnernet.com, which lists two industrial suppliers within a few minutes of my home. Nice!!!

Have you (anyone else?) used this unit on a Mark 3?


Here are the specs -
Part Specifications
Model / Part Number DC4127(3C)
Inner Race Outer Diameter (in.) 1.625
Outer Race Inner Diameter (in.) 2.281
Annular Space (in.) 0.33
Min Axial Length (in.) 0.53
Min Outer Race Outer Dimaeter (in.) 2.95
Max Inner Race Inner Diameter (in.) 1.06
Lubrication Type Oil
Torque Capacity (lb.ft.) 165
Maximum Inner Race Overrunning Speed (rpm) 4600
Maximum Outer Race Overrunning Speed (rpm) 2300

The inner and outer race dimensions are correct at 1.625 to fit the OD of the crank gear and 2.281 to fit the ID of the drive sprocket (per specs from OldBritts). But I am concerned about the last two lines of the spec list - "max overrunning speeds of 4600 and 2300 rpm." The inner race mates with the crankshaft gear, which will run over 5,000 RPM regularly. Or am I misinterpreting what "overrunning speed" means?

Appreciate the help.

PS - I replaced both the crank gear and the drive sprocket the last time I replaced the sprag, which was just over a year ago - aaarrrggg! Here we are again. This time i'll change the e. ignition unit first, as I should have done long ago.

Thanks again.
 
Hey.
Does anyone have the ignition curves for Power Arc. It had been a right interesting to compare them to other ignition systems!
 
pkeithkelly said:
But I am concerned about the last two lines of the spec list - "max overrunning speeds of 4600 and 2300 rpm." The inner race mates with the crankshaft gear, which will run over 5,000 RPM regularly. Or am I misinterpreting what "overrunning speed" means?

Hi pkeithkelly,
if you have reservations whatsoever you should buy only directly from A/N for peace of mind.
The price difference is retail vs wholesale with markup added. I can find no other difference.
Sorting to a closer tolerance would add cost certainly but there is no indication of this that I can find.
I am not the original owner and the PO did say he replaced the sprag so what I am using for a comparison benchmark is not OE. Keep that in mind. The one that the PO put in there worked fine and is still serviceable but the Boyer was misbehaving badly and I suspected damage so had a look see. The cage was beginning to deform at the element pivot points so that sent me on the mission. The DC4127 I purchased is no different than the one that came installed by the PO.

The speed spec is why I mentioned it's a fairly common industrial product than has been misapplied to the MKIII.
I had the same feeling you do. It is what you will get from whomever you choose to purchase from. Some bike shops do get a little fancy trying to make a permanent ID on the bits they sell, like adding a little prick punch dimple on the sprag retaining race so if need be they can tell they sold it. I'm pretty sure the current Royal Enfields use the same one, investigate that for yourself.
Last summer I did spend a hour one afternoon in a large local auto transmission rebuilder and went through everything they had available that may be a substitute. The parts man there I have known for 25 years and no joy at all.
It will work fine. I use one but my usage is very low so not a good life test.
I will say that I doubt seriously that the new races diameters are as accurate as the sprag manufacturer requires.
The sprag manufacturer has intended the product to be able to cycle at some speed, this is not the intended use while in the Norton.
That the RPM at the crank can occasionally take an excursion beyond the recommendation with no ill effects is reasonable.
I don't ride like a scalded cat any more, maybe you do, the amount of time I see 5K is limited to an occasional blast in second gear.
I keep the E-start functional purely because it's there. It is a marginal attempt by Norton et al to compete with the others available at the time. Being a maintenance item is a penalty of the application.
It is what it is. I respect that.
All the best.
Click to expand...
 
AntrimMan -

Once again, thanks for the tip on the sprag clutch directly from an industrial supplier.

I ordered one a few days back, for $75, and just picked it up a while ago.

It is the exact same unit that is sold by AN (assume they get them from the same manufacturer).

Part # is DC-4127 (3C), and it comes in a box marked Stieber Clutch.

I will be installing it to replace the most recent sprag failure soon, at the same time I put on the new electronic ignition, which I still haven't selected. It's either the Boyer Micro Power, or the Power Arc kit from Old Britts. Hopefully with an e-ignition that is more forgiving of low voltage, this sprag clutch will last a few years.
 
pkeithkelly said:
AntrimMan -

Once again, thanks for the tip on the sprag clutch directly from an industrial supplier.

I ordered one a few days back, for $75, and just picked it up a while ago.

It is the exact same unit that is sold by AN (assume they get them from the same manufacturer).

Part # is DC-4127 (3C), and it comes in a box marked Stieber Clutch.

I will be installing it to replace the most recent sprag failure soon, at the same time I put on the new electronic ignition, which I still haven't selected. It's either the Boyer Micro Power, or the Power Arc kit from Old Britts. Hopefully with an e-ignition that is more forgiving of low voltage, this sprag clutch will last a few years.
Click to expand...

That's exactly the same part number as the one I got a while back to replace the blown sprag in my Royal Enfield. So far, it's holding up.
 
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