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Re: Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames
Id heard theyd trained chimpazees to weld the Japanese frames .
Id heard theyd trained chimpazees to weld the Japanese frames .
Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames ?
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Re: Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames
And the technical interest is that a lot of the oriental "frames" used pressed metal as part of the structure. British attempts to use this construction technique had notably crashed on test - perhaps they tested them harder ? LE Velos excepted...Matt Spencer said:
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Re: Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames
Rohan said:
You keep throwing in statements like these, without any basis for quoting them.
'Must have', 'would have', certainly did' are not history, they are your opinion...
Well I've a certificate in welding (short courses) so probably have used more mig tig and oxy than many. Not commercially though, or recently.
This is my oxy-welding pressure test
This little cube - it has later been nickel plated (yes I did the plating) - has been pressurized to 3000 psi. If it bursts, or leaks, you fail. If you look closely it bulges, a lot. Thats thick steel, can't remember gauge. 3/16" ?
Welds are oxy only, no filler rod. Not pretty, but they have to be STRONG.
Looks great..............I would be very happy if I could TIG weld as well as that.
All welding tests are subjected to break test - under a press, if the weld cracks before the tubing sheet bar etc, you fail....
Perhaps we could ask your credentials ?
Or even if you own any Nortons.
Or have repaired any ?
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Re: Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames
Most recent Jap perimeter alloy frames are TIG welded using robots. Sometimes doesnt look that pretty, but is a very cost effective way of making frames, as were the pressed steel frames on the Jap machines which finished of the Brit motorcycle industry in the 70s.
Most recent Jap perimeter alloy frames are TIG welded using robots. Sometimes doesnt look that pretty, but is a very cost effective way of making frames, as were the pressed steel frames on the Jap machines which finished of the Brit motorcycle industry in the 70s.
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Re: Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames
In real terms the suggestion that Brit bikes handled while Jap ones of the same period didnt, was not enough to stop customers buying Japanese rather than British, which was obviously a factor in the demise of the British bike industry.
In real terms the suggestion that Brit bikes handled while Jap ones of the same period didnt, was not enough to stop customers buying Japanese rather than British, which was obviously a factor in the demise of the British bike industry.
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Re: Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames
I never realised bronze welding and brazing were differnt until this thread, after looking into it my front ISO may not be brazed then as the filler has not wicked between the tube and the plates.
The welding helmet thing is funny, all the welders in our Chinese factory do actually weld like that (mig and contractors with MMA), even if you give them a nice auto darkening one, not sure why ,maybe because its hot and the lens fogs up
I notice that carbon hasnt put up any of his bike pictures yet (he seems to be pretty good at ignoring these requests and changing the subject slightly though), maybe he can put up some welding pictures as well
Rohan said:
I never realised bronze welding and brazing were differnt until this thread, after looking into it my front ISO may not be brazed then as the filler has not wicked between the tube and the plates.
The welding helmet thing is funny, all the welders in our Chinese factory do actually weld like that (mig and contractors with MMA), even if you give them a nice auto darkening one, not sure why ,maybe because its hot and the lens fogs up
I notice that carbon hasnt put up any of his bike pictures yet (he seems to be pretty good at ignoring these requests and changing the subject slightly though), maybe he can put up some welding pictures as well
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Re: Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames
Ok so I used the wrong terminolodgy,it should have been BRONZE WELDING not BRAZED,SIFBRONZE is a trade name not a process,as you said,you never worked as a welder,well I have and can tell you plenty of welders weld like that, espiecialy while jigging.Most of the Chinese work force welds like that.
Don't put me in the same class as carbonfuckwit, I know I kwow fuck all, not everything.
You suggested oxy acetylene for road going featherbed frames thats pretty much like pulling an arseumption out of your arse to isn't it. But your original ? has been answered. were did they make commando frames?
Rohan said:
Ok so I used the wrong terminolodgy,it should have been BRONZE WELDING not BRAZED,SIFBRONZE is a trade name not a process,as you said,you never worked as a welder,well I have and can tell you plenty of welders weld like that, espiecialy while jigging.Most of the Chinese work force welds like that.
Don't put me in the same class as carbonfuckwit, I know I kwow fuck all, not everything.
You suggested oxy acetylene for road going featherbed frames thats pretty much like pulling an arseumption out of your arse to isn't it. But your original ? has been answered. were did they make commando frames?
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Re: Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames
In the early 80's Harris made a copy of the Italian Verlicchi frame for the Ducati TT2. This was made using Reynolds 531 tubing. The "welds" on the Harris frame were a thing of beauty! They looked like tig, with absolutely beautifully done fillets using bronze of some kind as the filler. Every "weld/braze" was perfect. I would like to know how they did this, and who the craftsman was that did the amazing work. (shame to paint them and cover the work) The Verlicchi frames looked like mig, but I'm no expert. Graeme
In the early 80's Harris made a copy of the Italian Verlicchi frame for the Ducati TT2. This was made using Reynolds 531 tubing. The "welds" on the Harris frame were a thing of beauty! They looked like tig, with absolutely beautifully done fillets using bronze of some kind as the filler. Every "weld/braze" was perfect. I would like to know how they did this, and who the craftsman was that did the amazing work. (shame to paint them and cover the work) The Verlicchi frames looked like mig, but I'm no expert. Graeme
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Re: Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames
Well, partly answered. Perhaps that was a lead in to "A short history of making Norton frames", since the general knowledge on this whole subject seems to be almost unknown.
A roadgoing featherbed here looks to be partly electric welded and partly oxy welded, so who knows how that comes to be ? It has a known history of being extensively repaired though...
Now, the address for Reynolds was Hay Hall in Brum. A streetview of this address shows an old medieval restored barn !! With a complex behind it. Did Reynolds make their own extruded tube, or obtain it from somewhere ? Were does Manchester come into it ? We still have no indication whatsoever when mig took over from electric or gas welding. Hopefully, Kens upcoming book will answer this and many questions. Indirectly hopefully, since its a pretty dry discussion otherwise...
Yes, CF is just full of words, wise in 20/20 hindsight. How about an example of welding, or bike, or ... ?
splatt said:
Well, partly answered. Perhaps that was a lead in to "A short history of making Norton frames", since the general knowledge on this whole subject seems to be almost unknown.
A roadgoing featherbed here looks to be partly electric welded and partly oxy welded, so who knows how that comes to be ? It has a known history of being extensively repaired though...
Now, the address for Reynolds was Hay Hall in Brum. A streetview of this address shows an old medieval restored barn !! With a complex behind it. Did Reynolds make their own extruded tube, or obtain it from somewhere ? Were does Manchester come into it ? We still have no indication whatsoever when mig took over from electric or gas welding. Hopefully, Kens upcoming book will answer this and many questions. Indirectly hopefully, since its a pretty dry discussion otherwise...
Yes, CF is just full of words, wise in 20/20 hindsight. How about an example of welding, or bike, or ... ?
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Re: Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames
I remember that Harris TT2 frame - a magazine article on that beauty is stashed away somewhere.
If its a bronze fillet on 531 tubing, then this is likely to have been oxy welded using bronze filler wire. Any class in welding will teach you to do this - with practice. Molten bronze is only semi liquid, so builds into neat fillets if you have a smooth repetitive action. I seem to recall that electric wasn't recommended for 531 ?
Note that braze is a completely different welding type, being more akin to soldering than welding - the braze (brass) is wicked into narrow spaces. Its very liquid, so can't generally be built into fillets at all.
GRM 450 said:
I remember that Harris TT2 frame - a magazine article on that beauty is stashed away somewhere.
If its a bronze fillet on 531 tubing, then this is likely to have been oxy welded using bronze filler wire. Any class in welding will teach you to do this - with practice. Molten bronze is only semi liquid, so builds into neat fillets if you have a smooth repetitive action. I seem to recall that electric wasn't recommended for 531 ?
Note that braze is a completely different welding type, being more akin to soldering than welding - the braze (brass) is wicked into narrow spaces. Its very liquid, so can't generally be built into fillets at all.
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Re: Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames
I never realised bronze welding and brazing were differnt until this thread, after looking into it my front ISO may not be brazed then as the filler has not wicked between the tube and the plates.
The welding helmet thing is funny, all the welders in our Chinese factory do actually weld like that (mig and contractors with MMA), even if you give them a nice auto darkening one, not sure why ,maybe because its hot and the lens fogs up
I notice that carbon hasnt put up any of his bike pictures yet (he seems to be pretty good at ignoring these requests and changing the subject slightly though), maybe he can put up some welding pictures as well[/quote]
Welding helmets, they told me they paid $1.50 US for thoose helmets on a stick made out of some sort of paper mache, as apposed to $150 us for a good 3M auto helmet, all their welding is done one handed not bad really
I never realised bronze welding and brazing were differnt until this thread, after looking into it my front ISO may not be brazed then as the filler has not wicked between the tube and the plates.
The welding helmet thing is funny, all the welders in our Chinese factory do actually weld like that (mig and contractors with MMA), even if you give them a nice auto darkening one, not sure why ,maybe because its hot and the lens fogs up
I notice that carbon hasnt put up any of his bike pictures yet (he seems to be pretty good at ignoring these requests and changing the subject slightly though), maybe he can put up some welding pictures as well[/quote]
Welding helmets, they told me they paid $1.50 US for thoose helmets on a stick made out of some sort of paper mache, as apposed to $150 us for a good 3M auto helmet, all their welding is done one handed not bad really
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Re: Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames
I'm fairly sure that my spare iso mount has been brazed, brass flowing into tight spaces is a perfect use for this. I can't see any gap there, so it has filled. And there is no large fillet, so its not likely to be anything else.. Cheers.Cheesy said:
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Re: Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames
Earlier in this thread it was stated that Reynolds didn't have the capacity to weld all Norton featherbed and then Commando frames themselves.
A careful read of that link to Reynolds history shows that nothing could be further from the truth. Reynolds had built up a very large tube working industry during WW2 (for aircraft, amongst other things) and postwar were on the lookout for 'permanent work' to keep them occupied. Norton frames provided some of this, according to that history.
It also seems that Reynolds were located in the Hay Hall Works in Tyseley , (with other divisions in other locations) and that Hay Hall was an old medieval building on the perimeter of the works. In recent years, Reynolds have both diversified and been sold off, and Hay Hall has been extensively restored. The Tysley Works are now mostly in the hands of other industries. (During WW2, Reynolds had taken over large areas of surrounding works, in connection with their WW2 aircraft work.).
The history further mentions that Reyolds sourced their steel from Swedish suppliers, although wartime would have interupted supplies ?
P.S. Rather suspect that Hay Hall is something quite special, anyone been there to report ?
Earlier in this thread it was stated that Reynolds didn't have the capacity to weld all Norton featherbed and then Commando frames themselves.
A careful read of that link to Reynolds history shows that nothing could be further from the truth. Reynolds had built up a very large tube working industry during WW2 (for aircraft, amongst other things) and postwar were on the lookout for 'permanent work' to keep them occupied. Norton frames provided some of this, according to that history.
It also seems that Reynolds were located in the Hay Hall Works in Tyseley , (with other divisions in other locations) and that Hay Hall was an old medieval building on the perimeter of the works. In recent years, Reynolds have both diversified and been sold off, and Hay Hall has been extensively restored. The Tysley Works are now mostly in the hands of other industries. (During WW2, Reynolds had taken over large areas of surrounding works, in connection with their WW2 aircraft work.).
The history further mentions that Reyolds sourced their steel from Swedish suppliers, although wartime would have interupted supplies ?
P.S. Rather suspect that Hay Hall is something quite special, anyone been there to report ?
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Re: Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames
531 was developed during ww2 for air craft (engine subframes being one use). Any welding using electric -mig or stick- on thin steel structures (531) produces massive localised heating and can result in unwanted areas of potential stress cracking. Bronze welding is prefferable where the the entire area being welded is heated to a degree and the actual joint is is brought gradually up to the required temp and welded (but not in the same way as hearth brazing a lugged fame). This is an expensive way to do it on a production line I think, but if you are building something out of high spec materials it is probably for a good reason. However, steels commonly used in motorcycle frames nowadays seem to be elecric welded no prob. Anyway where was that factory?
Bernhard said:
531 was developed during ww2 for air craft (engine subframes being one use). Any welding using electric -mig or stick- on thin steel structures (531) produces massive localised heating and can result in unwanted areas of potential stress cracking. Bronze welding is prefferable where the the entire area being welded is heated to a degree and the actual joint is is brought gradually up to the required temp and welded (but not in the same way as hearth brazing a lugged fame). This is an expensive way to do it on a production line I think, but if you are building something out of high spec materials it is probably for a good reason. However, steels commonly used in motorcycle frames nowadays seem to be elecric welded no prob. Anyway where was that factory?
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