Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames ?

Re: Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames

ZFD said:

When our chief buyer of 30-odd years, Bob Reynolds, retired, he was asked by Uncle Jim Renolds and Mick Duckworth if he was prepared to give an account of his time with Norton. He declined, because he "did not want to be led to the empty boasts of fictional achievements he now reads in every new interview of people like Ken Sprayson".

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450 frames per week is quite a lot of frames.
Even just in tube cutting and profiling the ends in prep for welding is quite a fair bit of work.
Be interesting to see what Kens' book has to say about all that.

I saw an automatic bridge welding machine in action somewhere, it could lay down a continuous seam of weld at about 30 metres an hour (I think it was)(bridge sized weld), I'll bet frame welders could only dream about such things back then...

Re: Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames

john robert bould said:

quote " That's- one frame a minute for a working day"I think your maths are slightly out..450 minute's is only 8 hours..i assume you ment ONE working day..not week...unless they only worked one day a week :lol: I think Carbon F will be wringing your neck on this one.

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Ssssh, we waz hoping for an interesting answer..
Since he claims to have seen frames being made, the same as Commandos were made even....

P.S. Elsewhere, it was claimed that Verlicchi was the world largest framemaker.
On the subject of Chinese motorcycles, the Chinese car industry last year made more cars than the USA AND Japan combined. And there are more bike makers than car makers. And Verlicchi don't make too many of those Chinese frames ?
Can anyone name thr 5 largest manufacturers of motorcycles, worldwide ?

Re: Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames

Rohan its very easy to use Google, and to read things in books! But even easier to tell someone who has no practical experience of actually making or doing anything themselves.

Re: Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames

Where did this figure of "450 frames a week" originate from-as that would be 23,400 frames a year which is double the amount of Commandos ever produced in a year?

Re: Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames

L.A.B. said:

Where did this figure of "450 frames a week" originate from-as that would be 23,400 frames a year which is double the amount of Commandos ever produced in a year?

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Please remember this is the net, and there is no need for anything related to actual fact!

Re: Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames

L.A.B. said:

Where did this figure of "450 frames a week" originate from-as that would be 23,400 frames a year which is double the amount of Commandos ever produced in a year?

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Lab, Are you saying Norton Commandos where being produced at "approx "12000 bikes per year? if so where have they all gone? Was the total amount on this forum just a few dozen..i guess we will never know how many have avoided the scrap yard...but it must be in the thousands....?

I also guess the dvla would not respond [to any Joe] the UK stock enquiry?.....But if anyone could "lean" on them for Historic records....you could. :!:
I think in the interest's of British history ,you should indulge us :lol:

Re: Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames

Total number of Commandos produced was around 50.000, and while they are very desirable today I guess that hefty repair bills for major repair work back in the 70-80s, meant that numbers of bikes still around today are not as high as you would have expected.

Re: Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames

john robert bould said:

L.A.B. said:

Where did this figure of "450 frames a week" originate from-as that would be 23,400 frames a year which is double the amount of Commandos ever produced in a year?

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Lab, Are you saying Norton Commandos where being produced at "approx "12000 bikes per year? if so where have they all gone? Was the total amount on this forum just a few dozen..i guess we will never know how many have avoided the scrap yard...but it must be in the thousands....?

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Around 50-55,000 Commandos were supposed to have been produced between 1968 and 1975 (although the last 1400 or so didn't get built until '76'-77) which doesn't even come close to averaging 12,000 a year, although some years were more productive than others but nowhere near as much as 23,000.

Re: Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames

Makes you wonder why exactly it has been suggested there was a need for 450 frames a week? Even though today Verlicchi is the largest m/c manufacturer in the world, I doubt very much they had the capacity to build 450 single units a week back in the 70s?

As to the "Reynolds" factory that made the UK frames, its almost certain that this work would have been contracted out to whoever in the UK was able to provide the lowest price. I am sure that Reynolds most certainly made some pre-production prototype frames, but would find it very doubtful that they would have wanted to invest a considerable amount of money in setting up a production line to make them in any numbers.

Re: Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames

Carbonfibre said:

Makes you wonder why exactly it has been suggested there was a need for 450 frames a week? Even though today Verlicchi is the largest m/c manufacturer in the world, I doubt very much they had the capacity to build 450 single units a week back in the 70s?

As to the "Reynolds" factory that made the UK frames, its almost certain that this work would have been contracted out to whoever in the UK was able to provide the lowest price. I am sure that Reynolds most certainly made some pre-production prototype frames, but would find it very doubtful that they would have wanted to invest a considerable amount of money in setting up a production line to make them in any numbers.

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Sheesh, don't you guys read the links on Reynolds history LAB provided ??

Top of page 36 of the link LAB provided on Reynolds history, it says "at the height of production, 450 frames a week". And something about the late 1950s (I think). And something about Norton frames. Not a clearly written article, quite a lot of ambiguities in how things are worded. Presumeably someone was writing who was not perfectly familiar with the subject. (Sound like anyone here, CF ?!!).

Note that these were not Commando frames, and not all Norton frames - by the sound of it. (reading between the lines ?).

As to CarbonFibres "it is almost certain that this work would have been contracted out", this statement is just rubbish - 'certain' by who, you ?? With no basis to make this statement, since you obviously haven't even read the article in question, let alone familair with Reynolds or their operations.

Maybe the work was contracted out, but lets have some basis to this statement, not just making assumptions and fabrications out of thin air.

P.S. Nortons production was seasonal, for the north american market, could it be the frames for the whole year were produced for just a few months.?

PPS. Did Reynolds paint the frames, or did they go to Nortons for stove enamelling ?
Did this practice change over the decades ?

Re: Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames

Rohan said:

Sheesh, don't you guys read the links on Reynolds history LAB provided ??

Top of page 36 of the link LAB provided on Reynolds history, it says "at the height of production, 450 frames a week". And something about the late 1950s (I think). And something about Norton frames. Not a clearly written article, quite a lot of ambiguities in how things are worded. Presumeably someone was writing who was not perfectly familiar with the subject. (Sound like anyone here, CF ?!!).

Note that these were not Commando frames, and not all Norton frames - by the sound of it. (reading between the lines ?).

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Sheesh kebab! Sounds as if you need to re-read it too? As this is what it says on p 40.

In the welded assembly departments healthy orders from Norton Motors called for 450 frames and rear swinging arms per week for their Commando model, to a design initially modified in the light of Reynolds experience.

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Anyone seen around 120,000 Commando frames lying around anywhere? :wink:

Re: Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames

Knew I'd seen it there someplace.
At least I read it...

I'd think we need to investigate the seasonal delivery of frames - they got them either early in the bike building season, or late, to give them time to work them all ??

P.S. What was the total number of Commandos built, again ?
50,000 ish sounds very low. ?

850s got into the 30,000s didn't they ?
And 750s were far more numerous ?

Re: Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames

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P.S. Nortons production was seasonal, for the north american market, could it be the frames for the whole year were produced for just a few months.?

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I am completely unfamiliar with Reynolds and their production, therefore I feel compelled to join in this conversation...

It is not unusual in any type of production facility to gear up for various orders and to do them all in one run in a short period of time and then to move on to the next order. Also production managers love to throw around figures like "we have produced as many as 450 frames, blah blah blah", when in reality this in an outlier event and the average is much lower. It would make perfect sense to me that Norton frames would have been produced in batches and that any weekly total would have little to do with the year's production of the same.

Re: Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames

Rohan said:

Carbonfibre said:

Makes you wonder why exactly it has been suggested there was a need for 450 frames a week? Even though today Verlicchi is the largest m/c manufacturer in the world, I doubt very much they had the capacity to build 450 single units a week back in the 70s?

As to the "Reynolds" factory that made the UK frames, its almost certain that this work would have been contracted out to whoever in the UK was able to provide the lowest price. I am sure that Reynolds most certainly made some pre-production prototype frames, but would find it very doubtful that they would have wanted to invest a considerable amount of money in setting up a production line to make them in any numbers.

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Sheesh, don't you guys read the links on Reynolds history LAB provided ??

Top of page 36 of the link LAB provided on Reynolds history, it says "at the height of production, 450 frames a week". And something about the late 1950s (I think). And something about Norton frames. Not a clearly written article, quite a lot of ambiguities in how things are worded. Presumeably someone was writing who was not perfectly familiar with the subject. (Sound like anyone here, CF ?!!).

Note that these were not Commando frames, and not all Norton frames - by the sound of it. (reading between the lines ?).

As to CarbonFibres "it is almost certain that this work would have been contracted out", this statement is just rubbish - 'certain' by who, you ?? With no basis to make this statement, since you obviously haven't even read the article in question, let alone familair with Reynolds or their operations.

Maybe the work was contracted out, but lets have some basis to this statement, not just making assumptions and fabrications out of thin air.

P.S. Nortons production was seasonal, for the north american market, could it be the frames for the whole year were produced for just a few months.?

PPS. Did Reynolds paint the frames, or did they go to Nortons for stove enamelling ?


Did this practice change over the decades ?[/quote

I know several people who were actually working in the British motorcycle industry way back when, and possibly what they have to say is somewhat more accurate than things that get written in books, or nonsense that gets posted on net chat forums?

Not worth arguing over though, so lets take it as read that Reynolds were making 450 frames a week, even though none of their tube producing factories had any sort of facility to do this!

Re: Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames

Rohan said:

P.S. What was the total number of Commandos built, again ?
50,000 ish sounds very low. ?

850s got into the 30,000s didn't they ?
And 750s were far more numerous ?

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It depends on whos figures you believe and how the numbers are interpreted to a certain extent.

55,000 was a figure given by Mike Jackson.

There were apparent serial number jumps during production, for instance, 1971 production was supposed to have ended around serial 150500 (NOC), and 1972 production commenced at 200000.
There was also a jump in 750 numbers to 220000 in March 1973 unless they managed to produce around 8,000 750s in about 4 months when they only managed to make 12,000 in the previous 12 months?

There was another apparent jump in 750 serial numbers to 230000 in June '73 again, unless they managed to make 10,000 750s between March and May/June, whilst also building 850s (starting at 300000) and then only make approx. 400 more 230000 series 750s between June and October '73, the last 750 supposedly serial 230935.

There also appears to have been a jump in numbers between the end of 850Mk2/2A production and Mk3 production which commenced at 325000.

If we take the obvious jumps in serial numbers into consideration and if we were to assume that every number within a known series was actually allocated, so there were no number gaps between batches, then going by the serial numbers I estimate the actual amount could be as high as 72,000. However the early production figures also include a certain amount of 650 Mercurys and P11A's but I doubt they would make a significant difference to the total figure.

Re: Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames

Carbonfibre said:

I know several people who were actually working in the British motorcycle industry way back when, and possibly what they have to say is somewhat more accurate than things that get written in books, or nonsense that gets posted on net chat forums?

Not worth arguing over though, so lets take it as read that Reynolds were making 450 frames a week, even though none of their tube producing factories had any sort of facility to do this!

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Since you never actually produce any sources or material to back up anything you say, why not just invent something ?

From what ZFD is saying, and in the press, you'd practically think Ken Sprayson produced the whole lot himself. Going to be interesting to see what his (Kens) book says.
Must have been a busy little (?) shop, wherever it was.

Re: Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames

Carbonfiber, how do you know for a fact that Reynolds did not have the facility to produce 450 frames a week?

Did you work there?

Do you have access to the plant's production?

How the hell would you personally know if they could produce 150, instead of 100, or 450 instead of 350?

What exactly qualifies you to speak in certain terms about Reynolds?

Re: Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames

To save argument, it seems that Reynolds were indeed producing 450 frames a week..............I was completely wrong to suggest this was not the case!

Re: Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames

55,000 was a figure given by Mike Jackson.

Mike Jackson is a very entertaining and amusing man, has been involved with Nortons on and off for about three decades, and knows how to tell a good story.

A reliable or accurate source he is not.

Accurate numbers are definitely not his forte. I discussed the number of Hi-Riders produced with him recently, and his estimate was totally out against what I have since seen in the records, even at a brief glance. The same applies to his statement about the total number of Commandos produced. I suspect Mike forgets there were those big gaps in the system that LAB rightly points out. Had I the time I'd be looking up the smaller gaps which I seem to remember I saw in the despatch records.

On an aside you'd be surprised how many P11s and Mercurys were produced alongside the early Commandos- all in the same numbering sequence.

Re: Where was the Reynolds factory that made Commando frames

I had been meaning to "chime" in on this thread some time ago but got busy with the kids weekend projects etc... however I'm curious about my '69 basket case frame and now my 2 '75 e-starts. this quote was earlier in the thread "I dont think the Verlicchi Norton frames used ERW tubing.............I know they did! They were heavier than the Reynolds frames built in the UK, but far cheaper to make" A few years ago I was able to fit my '69 frame in the plastic media blaster booth at work-(I know , I know , don't ask, I just snuck it in) and at that time when the paint was removed and I saw the Brazed joints I was thinking that because it was and early commando frame it wsn't as good as the later ones (stories of head tube cracking etc...with early frames). It sure is really light too. Anyway am I now to understand that it is made of better quality tubing than the later ones, and are my 75's Italian? Not that it matters that much to me since I'm not taking them GP racing, I'm just curious. Cj