Wheel Building 101
- Thread starter rvich
- Start date
Holy crap, I did it!!!!!!! It took 15 minutes once I figured out the trick. I'm using a harley hub and a 17" deep center ackront rim. I have 2 different spokes, the same length, but different leg lengths.
First you insert them alternating in the holes on each side, long, short etc....
Then you start a set of long legs on one side of the hub with a matching hole angle.
Then insert a spoke every 4th hole. when one side is done you flip the assembly over and repeat for the other long leg ones.
Make sure the short leg oned don't become trapt.
When both sets of long leg ones are in, start a set of short leg ones, oppisite direction.
repeat for other side.
Once I figured this out it was easy. Now on to truing.
First you insert them alternating in the holes on each side, long, short etc....
Then you start a set of long legs on one side of the hub with a matching hole angle.
Then insert a spoke every 4th hole. when one side is done you flip the assembly over and repeat for the other long leg ones.
Make sure the short leg oned don't become trapt.
When both sets of long leg ones are in, start a set of short leg ones, oppisite direction.
repeat for other side.
Once I figured this out it was easy. Now on to truing.
Check this out: http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthrea ... Post247993
rvich said:
Russ,
If you Google 'lace and true motorcycle wheel' you'll find a dozen pages with pretty good info on the general idea. As far as tension and torque goes they all seem to go by the 'ping' method. Buchanan's sells a torque wrench but the say not to use it for truing(?) I would recommend getting one of their spoke wrenches because they fit nipples exactly and have a long enough handle that you can use your fingertips to get a better fell for what you're doing.
The stainless spokes that you get from Buchanan's don't ring like the original thinner steel ones. The front wheel with the disc is really a challenge. If you are lacing an aluminum rim with stainless spokes it's very difficult. The thicker stainless spokes won't tell you as clearly where you are on tension by striking them and they may be bound by the flange on the hub on the angled side that will keep them from a clear shot at where they need to be pointed with the rim correctly positioned. It's been said that the lacing process at the factory included pressing the loosely laced hub into the offset to put a bend in the spokes that need the angle. The straight spokes on the disc side are always going to be tighter than the other side. With steel rims you can go tighter than you might normally go on the straight spokes than with Al rims because you don't have as much to worry about with pulling the nipple through the rim. With Al rims it's the opposite. You have to go lighter on the angled spokes than normal. It's difficult to describe but it's obvious looking at the wheel.
I didn't get around bringing this up in the thread on lacing a while back, but around 15 years ago on the BritIron list a guy laced up his aluminum wheels and a month later he had a catastrophic failure of the front wheel. The bike was totaled and the guy was critically injured. The spokes didn't break, they pulled through the rim.
rvich
VIP MEMBER
Thanks guys, I appreciate the info and links. I haven't spent a lot of time on the phone with Buchanans. The person I spoke with there made it obvious to me that I didn't know enough about the topic to bother educating. They were polite, but not exactly a fountain of information. I have decided to practice on my steel rims with stock spokes, get a feel for it if I am able and then decide whether to have somebody else lace any new wheels I may buy.
While my conversation with Buchanans would lead me to believe that the different options available there are mostly a matter of preference (I began to suspect that the woman was rolling her eyes with exasperation. I obviously don't know how to properly accessorize), I suspect that some are more forgiving than others. Down to dimples or no. Since I doubt I will buy enough different wheels in my life to practice on them all, this is the kind of stuff that can come in as useful.
The tale of the nipples pulling thru the rim is enough to make one pause.
Russ
While my conversation with Buchanans would lead me to believe that the different options available there are mostly a matter of preference (I began to suspect that the woman was rolling her eyes with exasperation. I obviously don't know how to properly accessorize), I suspect that some are more forgiving than others. Down to dimples or no. Since I doubt I will buy enough different wheels in my life to practice on them all, this is the kind of stuff that can come in as useful.
The tale of the nipples pulling thru the rim is enough to make one pause.
Russ
I can't even true a wheel let alone lace one and have always wished there was a place I could take a hands on course or see a tech seminar, but never the right time or place.
I am also looking at new wheels. It is all the ''preferences" that I am trying to figure out. Do I want 18'' or 19''? Shouldered rim or no shoulder? Excell or Buchanon? A lot to think about. I had not even gotten to the dimple question yet.
This is obviously my first old bike restoration.
This is obviously my first old bike restoration.
hankmarx said:
Depends on what you want.
I want 19"s with aluminum shouldered rims. But that's just me.
rvich
VIP MEMBER
I called Buchanans back, armed with new quesitons. The woman (well she sounded pretty young, but don't they all to us old farts?) I spoke with was pretty easy to get along with today. She claims, despite my skepicism, that there is no difference in the strength of the different rims and that it is NOT easier to pull a nipple through an alloy rim than it is a steel one. She says the different styles are only to offer riders a look and that unfortunatly there is not any way to make the process easier by using science or math!
I need to go somewhere where I can look at different rims. Somehow looking at photos doesn't seem to do it for me, I guess I need a field trip to SoCal.
Russ
I need to go somewhere where I can look at different rims. Somehow looking at photos doesn't seem to do it for me, I guess I need a field trip to SoCal.
Russ
bwolfie said:Holy crap, I did it!!!!!!! It took 15 minutes once I figured out the trick. I'm using a harley hub and a 17" deep center ackront rim. I have 2 different spokes, the same length, but different leg lengths.
First you insert them alternating in the holes on each side, long, short etc....
Then you start a set of long legs on one side of the hub with a matching hole angle.
Then insert a spoke every 4th hole. when one side is done you flip the assembly over and repeat for the other long leg ones.
Make sure the short leg oned don't become trapt.
When both sets of long leg ones are in, start a set of short leg ones, oppisite direction.
repeat for other side.
Once I figured this out it was easy. Now on to truing.
I know you posted back in December but I just took a look at your laced wheel and I believe you have laced them incorrectly. Correct me if I am wrong but every bicycle wheel I have laced and every laced wheel that I have seen has the spokes alternating. So on each flange you would alternate dropping in the spokes from the inside to the outside. In the above photo all your spokes have been put in from the outside of the flange. Compare the spokes on your flange to the photo on the link below.
Let me know if I am out of line. I can also offer some more unwanted advice on the subject!
Gary
http://www.oldbritts.com/lacing_info.html
I found easiest way to get spokes in initially is to put all the spoke in the hub then lean them inward to place rim around them then feed in the spoke ends and trap with a few twists of the nipple. Do the inner two rows first then the outer two aided by some twisting of rim on spokes towards the last of em.
Spoke tension needs to be OVER any expected or UN-expected road load shocks.
Basically should get them as tight as possible w/o stripping nipple threads or twisting spokes or breaking wrench jaws. Current rims sold by Bucahanan are over kill heavy duty thick and you will not risk pulled steel nipple out the rim. There are lighter Al rims lkie Morad but good luck finding them. Excel rim only weigh a bit less than the steel ones. Necked spokes can save a few oz's. Al nipples are for show only not go so those may be what hurt the rider/bike in the warning tale above. Going tubless will save more mass than lighter rim unless you can fine CarbonFiber spoked rims and then under a few $1000 per rim.
Each row has a certain total length, thickness and bend end. Each row of same spoke should have its own final tone. I tightened/loosen so a striker gives very similar tone. This can only be done once wheel is already about perfect aligned and tightened. Dull sounding as SS may be its still got a ting sound. I tap around a row of spokes to get the variation and most common tone then tap 3 spokes next to each other and diddle the low or high one to about match the other two, then work around rim, then move to next row. Again this is very last phase of nip up.
Norton front disc is the worst possible rim d/t the offset. You must get the disc side straight aimed spokes fullly centered and nipped up good before even staring on the other side. DAMHIK. ugh. If not the non disc spokes will pull it off center in forkes. Hub/axle spacers locate rotor and caliper w/o a rim on.
I found mounted on bike lifted/supported so I could sit on stool/box gave convenient stuff to attach dial gauge for side run out and a wire for the center run out. Its rather more important to get the side/side best as can because tire imperfrections and deflections nullify roll roundness run out to a few 1000ths easy. If ya monitor by dial gauge it wil reveal rim becomes slightly
wavy where each spoke is tight or lose.
I used clothes pins on side of spokes I thought needed tightening to that side or lossened on the other side. I also used tape to indicate out of round or tipped alignment to help visualize where to loosen before tightening other spokes.
Rim can get kind of oval shaped as you work up and above helps to see where to squeeze narrower to let off to widen.
Dial gauge dragging on edge of polished Al rim will leave a track so might use tape. Rear rim tends to be off centered ~3/8" to LH so might fudge some on your rim to move it more inline with spine - if that even matters we can detect. I found small adjustable wrench the best as can adjust to really grip nipple flats well. Some times I needed to smack nipple head to get last bit of tension. Between sequences of spoke tightening I'd spin rim and drag hammer of big wrench end to strike spokes and shock the rim to take out any slack before next go around and around ditto etc. It woke my wife up to ask WTF was that noise, on other side of home through closed doors, ugh.
Spoke tension needs to be OVER any expected or UN-expected road load shocks.
Basically should get them as tight as possible w/o stripping nipple threads or twisting spokes or breaking wrench jaws. Current rims sold by Bucahanan are over kill heavy duty thick and you will not risk pulled steel nipple out the rim. There are lighter Al rims lkie Morad but good luck finding them. Excel rim only weigh a bit less than the steel ones. Necked spokes can save a few oz's. Al nipples are for show only not go so those may be what hurt the rider/bike in the warning tale above. Going tubless will save more mass than lighter rim unless you can fine CarbonFiber spoked rims and then under a few $1000 per rim.
Each row has a certain total length, thickness and bend end. Each row of same spoke should have its own final tone. I tightened/loosen so a striker gives very similar tone. This can only be done once wheel is already about perfect aligned and tightened. Dull sounding as SS may be its still got a ting sound. I tap around a row of spokes to get the variation and most common tone then tap 3 spokes next to each other and diddle the low or high one to about match the other two, then work around rim, then move to next row. Again this is very last phase of nip up.
Norton front disc is the worst possible rim d/t the offset. You must get the disc side straight aimed spokes fullly centered and nipped up good before even staring on the other side. DAMHIK. ugh. If not the non disc spokes will pull it off center in forkes. Hub/axle spacers locate rotor and caliper w/o a rim on.
I found mounted on bike lifted/supported so I could sit on stool/box gave convenient stuff to attach dial gauge for side run out and a wire for the center run out. Its rather more important to get the side/side best as can because tire imperfrections and deflections nullify roll roundness run out to a few 1000ths easy. If ya monitor by dial gauge it wil reveal rim becomes slightly
wavy where each spoke is tight or lose.
I used clothes pins on side of spokes I thought needed tightening to that side or lossened on the other side. I also used tape to indicate out of round or tipped alignment to help visualize where to loosen before tightening other spokes.
Rim can get kind of oval shaped as you work up and above helps to see where to squeeze narrower to let off to widen.
Dial gauge dragging on edge of polished Al rim will leave a track so might use tape. Rear rim tends to be off centered ~3/8" to LH so might fudge some on your rim to move it more inline with spine - if that even matters we can detect. I found small adjustable wrench the best as can adjust to really grip nipple flats well. Some times I needed to smack nipple head to get last bit of tension. Between sequences of spoke tightening I'd spin rim and drag hammer of big wrench end to strike spokes and shock the rim to take out any slack before next go around and around ditto etc. It woke my wife up to ask WTF was that noise, on other side of home through closed doors, ugh.
bwolfie said:
I found that when I reuse a hub its generally quicker to get the patter right. The old spokes leave a mark on the hub which helps you get the pattern going.
Thanks for the lesson on HD rims. I just spent the last hour looking at different lacing patterns. It appears your style rim is the exception rather than the rule, but I like it and it sure simplifies things. Check out the link below if you want to see some eye candy.
Have you tensioned your wheels yet?
http://harleyrims.com/40-60_spoke.htm#4 ... e%20wheels
