What do Wheels Weigh?

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There is never a down side to lighter sprung or spun mass, period throw in towel and go home. I totally respect/acknowledge what you acertel experienced racing, but don't think ya capable of comprehending why, so now agree with list consensus ya just annoying us ignorantly to read. If it feels better on more massive wheels then proof its a corner cripple that will take ya down at speed so fast ya won't know what went wrong, regardless of best fork geometry - ya mistakenly think is the key to going around turns ahead of others as don't really matter if really cornering on max rear can take before frame limits staying in tire control traction. Hi powered turns should not involve fork/front tire influence, as should be lifted/lightened out of effect by rear thrust, so if depending on ordinary sight seeing front traction, ya is lolly gagging sluggish to me and mis led in endless misunderstanding crash prone ignorance.

Fact is wheel gryo do not keep bikes upright only slight fork oscillation cycles does, which can suddenly conflict with rear patch steering harmonics to take ya down thinking was fork issue because that was felt in whiplashing reaction to lose front traction first, but not the cause. Wheel mass gryro's only make turning harder to do, duh.
 
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Can anyone with spare reading/memory time, pick out lightest components mentioned for a list to seek out?

Brake rotors are another thread subject as too variable customized to include in base line wheel assembly. In Peel wheels the steel bearing spacers replaced with drilled out alu tubes, notched at end so a drift gets more secure seat on races to drive out. Also axles dia. drilled hollow 1/4th ish. TubelessA rim sealing methods are tricky business to get sealed enough w/o adding almost as much mass as trying to eliminate, so also another thread subject. Alu front axle nut works fine on Peel too.

Rim
Hub
Spokes
Nipples
Spacer
Tire
Tube
 
Gyroscopes precess when you apply a force to the axle. When you ride a bike the gyros keep it upright and to turn you apply a force through the handle bars or by leaning your body. The mass of the wheel determines how much force you apply. If your wheels are too heavy, the handling will be heavy, so fitting lighter wheels will probably provide an improvement. If your wheels are the correct weight to suit the steering geometry and the bike's weight distribution, fitting lighter wheels can make the handling too light and more uncertain. Going fast around a twisty course requires confidence, when that is diminished you go slower. The problem is that when you change the wheels on your bike you ASSUME, and the exercise is expensive. There are two ways of going. - you can stay with your usual wheels and change the rake, trail and weight distribution of your bike to get the best handling . Or you can buy lighter wheels and get the inertia advantage - better acceleration, but still go through the same optimisation process. If the bike ends up worse, it is a very difficult return road.
 
If you are road racing, it is always interesting to ride your major competitor's bike. Sometimes it is faster in a straight line but more uncertain as you ride it around twisty parts of the race circuit. That is when you lower your overall gearing,- depending on the circuit. The next corner is often more important than the last straight ?
 
I've done routine air borne travel a 3-4 ft elevation more than all the way across 4 lane major hwy, waving at slack jawed people while wigging fork almost lock to lock spining over 60 mph w/o a hint of any influence on bike posture. A throttle blip or rear brake nab would pitch nose up or down significant enough I'd not do that so not to screw up landing on nose impacting sloped landing zone, like ski jumpers fairly soft touch downs.
Wheel mass only creates resistance to change, speed, lean angle and fork force but has nothing to do with balancing up right, only fork oscillation does, exactly identical to trying not to fall over at a stop light moving forks till having to put a foot down. Stunt riders do it as long as they want w/o moving. Only tractors and locomotives benefit by more wheel mass unless trying for land speed then lighten same as everyone else.
 
Steve, I got the impression that you said reducing wheel weight is always beneficial. When Peter Williams designed the first Commandos, he specified race type steering geometry. It was wrong for the average commuter rider. The young guys who rode over the cat's eyes on wet roads experienced tank-slappers and a few go chucked over the handle-bars. Alloy rims might have made their bikes safer or alternatively, even more likely to crash - who is to know which would happen ? Heavier wheels tend to stabilise the bike, but once the tank-slapper has started, it is more difficult to control. I have only ever experienced it a few times, however my answer to it is get my hands off the bars and grab the tank. Then keep throwing the bike vertical until the oscillations stop, then place my open hands on the bars and carefully grab them. If you grab hold too early, you get launched - the wheel mass is a major factor. If it keeps the oscillations going longer, you have more time to be horrified. If the wheels are lighter, you might be be less likely to be launched - OR NOT ! - Anyone who rides a bike without the hydraulic steering damper is a dill. I have a dislocated collar bone to prove it - could have easily been my neck.

On this forum, I have mentioned the 250cc Moto Parilla that a few of my mates rode years ago. They were all good A-Grade road racers and every one of them crashed it. You could be crouched down on it going like the breeze and the next thing you knew you were picking yourself up off the bitumen, not knowing how you got there. Lighter wheels, if that was possible, would probably make the bike more impossible to ride safely.
You mentioned stunt riders - I suggest most of them are not road-racers - it is a different game. There would not be many who do stunts at 100 MPH.
 
Naw, cycle handling upsets are not caused by less wheel mass, just geometry, surface/wind condition and pilot input. Research not hobot found slight fork oscillation is what keeps 2 inline wheels upright not gyro/flyweel effect which mainly just resists changing lean angles, down or up. Wheel mass mainly delays accelerating and slowing and suspension action.

Support cycle so front lifted and spin up wheel with a drill to see not much difference to swing forks. Watch the stunt jumpers to see their forks move w/o affecting flight posture, once air borne. Stand next to bike, move forks to see frame shifting to rear patch some for sense of how forks act like a rudder for rear patch to do most the turning effect. My big revelation was nil difference on or off road handling except higher pavement speeds/traction make thing happen distinctly slower easier to recover upsets.

About only way to get significantly lighter wheels with listed items is sealing spokes tubeless which would be main thing heavyer cast wheels help with. I had 4-5 failures sealing rims w/o adding almost as much as the tube eliminated. Changing tires is risky to nick sealant with tire tool or tire bead sliding across. Tried the Tubliss narrow rim sealer off roaders love but very hard to install/change tire w/o nicking its tough inner-inner tube and not tested/sold for pavement speed use d/t unknowns of heating. I disscussed with the inventor to reason out heat would likely be less than a tube so might try again but too many delays so put tube in rear. Front finally holding air - after a few failures using various sealants/glues, till tedious clean up to apply expensive Hylomar Racer Blue. Think Peels front lightest so far, even with heavy off road knobby - d/t tubeless + wave brake rotor.
 
You can shed more than a pound by going tubeless on most vintage road racers and as you mention, there's a reduction in heat. There is at least one spoke wheel conversion to tubeless kit that a few vintage road racers have used and I have not heard anything negative about them. Lighter is better.
 
The reason so few kits out or shops offering to seal spokeed rims is how tricky it is to get it done right the first time w/o massive goop layer essentially leveling off the valley by gas tank sealer, urothane, epoxy, RTV to special tapes. One lb off tube is about as good as it gets, unless doing it like Burt Munro, creep up by repeated failures till success. Road plugging is so easy compared and never a blow out surprise on big punctures neither.

Peel may shoot for minimal 1/4 m E.T.s once all lowered with widest flat slick as can fit for dropping clutch 4000ish in hi ratio 2nd so thot would spin tire in rim or jerk spokes out to seek a slab billet HD wide spoke wheel then fab up bearing/sprocket,rotor carrier and water jet out unneeded spoke mass. Also might be better on hill climb drag races too. Its tubeless of course and real race tires are like running shoes compared to dress shoes or boots. TC runs chopper 16" rear so maybe the lessor dia. compensates for felt amount of spun mass.
 
Bernhard said:
Have you included the 5 spoke Campag / Marvic wheels ?

Front 18 x 2.6kilo

Rear 18 x 3.6 kilo


https://www.bikehps.com/acatalog/Marvic-Campagnolo-5-Spoke-Motorcycle-Wheels-Yamaha.html
Click to expand...

I didn't include them because I'm not sure what configuration the weights are for. The wheels each come in three different rim widths, and they will have different weights. From comparison to similar mag wheels I have measured, I think these weights (taken from the Marvic web site) are probably for bare wheels with no bearing carriers or bearings, but again, that isn't specified in the data.

http://www.marvic.it/en/prodotto/vintage-5-razze/

Ken
 
hobot said:
Can anyone with spare reading/memory time, pick out lightest components mentioned for a list to seek out?

Brake rotors are another thread subject as too variable customized to include in base line wheel assembly. In Peel wheels the steel bearing spacers replaced with drilled out alu tubes, notched at end so a drift gets more secure seat on races to drive out. Also axles dia. drilled hollow 1/4th ish. TubelessA rim sealing methods are tricky business to get sealed enough w/o adding almost as much mass as trying to eliminate, so also another thread subject. Alu front axle nut works fine on Peel too.

Rim
Hub
Spokes
Nipples
Spacer
Tire
Tube
Click to expand...

Too lazy to go through all this looking for lightest components, but do have the parts on my wish list:
Takasago Excel 18" rims, WM2 front, WM3 rear. LIght. about $500 for both
Stock hubs lightened $??
SS spokes, nipples, wheel assy + true by Buchanans about $250
Conti Classic Attack radials 0244344 front 90/90 , 0244184 rear 110/90 about $300 Radials!
Coupla crappy lightweight tubes. Total @ $1100 + hubs + extra rotor for quick change back to stock

Sealing a typical spoked wheel to go tubeless means no more spoke adjustment.. End of interest unless using the Italian Bartubeless system. http://www.bartubeless.it/en/bartubeless/how-replace-spokes
How much lighter than a crappy tube? Don't know.

With more? money, and assuming they do an 18" or 19" rim, maybe cd get the Alpina "spare parts" to lace your hubs w their wheels, designed for spokes + tubeless tire?
http://www.solotriumph.com/triumph-bonneville/racing-parts/bonneville-tubeless-kit-conversion-sts

James Parker wrote a column recently about doing this, but I cd not find any evidence of them not being a one-off project... https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/do-we-need-low-cost-tubeless-spoked-wheel
 
Don't we love the delicious smorgasbord of dream machine items. Properly tightened spokes should never need tightening but beyond most bravery-skill-time to really do that. High ringing pitch tight as best to find out if weak area now than later too. Unless using tank sealer or epoxy all the other ways allow nipples to turn but may have to reseal is all. Ask for necked down lighter spokes if didn't know to do so for few more oz's off.
Phone apps exist to help but ear alone good enough if pitch high enough.
 
hobot said:
Can anyone with spare reading/memory time, pick out lightest components mentioned for a list to seek out?
Click to expand...

I took the liberty of reposting Ken's list with my Excel WM3 wheels added in:


This is an update with metric weights converted to lbs. and oz., and a little text enhancing for readability

WHEEL WEIGHT SUMMARY

Wheels that have been or can be fit to Commandos, some easy, some requiring major mods.
All wheels include bearings unless noted otherwise..

Front Wheels – Bare Wheel with Bearings

MKIII Commando 1.85x19 wheel – 12 lbs 7.2 oz.
Morris 2.15x19 aluminum wheel – 11 lbs. 14 oz.
Morris 2.15x19 aluminum wheel 5 bolt – 12 lbs. 12 oz.
Harley 2.15x19 aluminum front wheel -15 lbs. 14.2 oz.
EPM 2.15x18 front mag wheel – 8 lbs. 5.4 oz.
Yamaha TZ250 Asahi 3.5x17 aluminum front wheel – 8 lbs. 4.4 oz.
BST Flat Track 19" carbon fiber wheels – 6.25 – 6.875 lbs. With bearings and spacers.
1971 Norton front hub with SS spokes and non shouldered Excel 18" rim – 10 lbs. 9 oz.
Excel shouldered alloy WM3-19, 8/9 gauge SS spokes, disc hub, bearings, spacers - 11 lbs. 1.8 oz. – per gortnipper

Front Wheels – With Disk

JS Commando front hub with stainless spokes and Sun 2.75-17 rim, with large drilled disc – 16lbs. 7.4 oz.

Front Wheels – With Disk and Tire

Norvil hub and 11" disk (lightened) with Buchanon stainless spokes and non-shuldered Akront WM -19 alloy rim, Avon 110/80-18 AM22 with tube, and titanium fasteners – 24 lbs. 11.6 oz.
Norvil hub with Borranni WM3x18 alloy rim, dual 11.5" Norvil disks (drilled), and 110/80/18 Dunlop KR145A race tire – 30 lbs. per Holmeslice
Same Norvil hub/Borrani rim with single disk and 80/80/18 KR825 race tire – 21.3 lbs. per Holmeslice
Excel shouldered alloy WM3-19, 8/9 gauge SS spokes, disc hub, bearings, spacers, CNW Brembo disc, rim strips, tube and a new Avon AM26 100/90 - 23 lbs 6.4 oz – per gortnipper

Rear Wheels – Bare Wheel with Bearings

MKIII Commando 1.85x19 rear wheel w/o disk or sprocket, with cush rubber – 15 lbs. 10 oz.
Morris 2.50x18 aluminum rear wheel 6 bolt – 15 lbs. 4.6 oz.
EPM 3.0x18 rear mag wheel – 10 lbs. 2.6 oz.
Yamaha TZ250 Marvic 5.5x17 rear mag wheel – 8 lbs. 3.0 oz.
Barnes QC rear with Akront shouldered 2.50x18 alloy rim, Buchanan ss spokes, with spacers and bearings, sprocket, and swiss cheese disk, Avon 130/70-VB18 AM23 – 27 lbs. 11.6 oz.
Excel shouldered alloy WM3-18 drum hub, 8/10 gauge SS spokes, bearings - 12 lbs 12.8 oz. – per gortnipper

Rear Wheels – With Disk, Sprocket, and Tire

JS Triumph rear hub with 1 3/4" spacer, strainless HD spokes, Sun 3.50-18 rim, with bearings and spacers – 13 lbs. 2.0 oz.

Parts

Stock Commando brake rotor – 5 lbs 4.4 oz.
Heavy duty tube 3.00 – 3.25-19 – 1 lb. 8.4 oz.
Heavy duty tube 4.10-19 – 1lb. 13.8 oz.
Dunlop K81 4.10-19 – 11 lbs. 7.0 oz.
Dunlop K591 110/90-18 – 12.8 lbs. per L.E.N.
Avon Roadrunner 4.00-18 – 13 lbs. 1 oz. per worntorn
JS turned down and drilled Commando rear disc – 2 lb. 5.0 oz.
MKIII Commando cush drive plate – 6.4 oz.
MKIII Commando sprocket with stub axle – 5 lb. 5.2 oz.
Morad flanged 2.5x19 alloy rim – 2.2 kg. (4 lbs. 13.2 oz.) per worntorn
Excell flanged WM3x19 alloy rim – 2.18 kg. (4 lbs. 12.9 oz.) per APRSV
Stock steel WM2x19 rim – 2.53 kg. (5 lbs. 5.2 oz.) per APRSV
Dunlop WM2x19 steel rim – 2552 g. (5 lbs. 10.0 oz.) per gortnipper
Jones WM2x19 steel rim – 2662 g. (5 lbs. 13.9 oz.) per gortnipper
Stock front spoke set, including nipples – 1002 g. (2 lbs. 3.2 oz.) per gortnipper.
Stock rear spoke set, including nippels – 625 g. (1 lb. 6.0 oz.) per gortnipper.
Bare front hub (disk brake)– 1501 g. (3 lbs. 4.9 oz.) per gortnipper.
Bare rear hub (drum brake) - 2912 g. (6 lbs. 6.7 oz.) per gortnipper.
CNW Brembo rotor - 3 lbs. 8 oz. – per gortnipper

Other

MKIII Commando 1.85x19 rear wheel with disk but w/o sprocket – 20 lbs. 14.4 oz.
JS rear wheel with disc and slick – 29 lbs. 15.6 oz.
Ronal cast alloy wheels, 1.85x19 front, 2.15x18 rear, with stock disks – 19 kg. (41 lbs. 14.2 oz.) per nortonspeed
Excel shouldered alloy WM3-18, rear drum hub, 8/10 gauge SS spokes, bearings, rim strips, tube and a new Avon AM26 4.00 - 27 lbs 11.2 oz – per gortnipper
 
2nd honeymoon gift to Peel is this. *Best felt mod ls less wheels!

BST Flat Track 19" carbon fiber wheels – 6.25 – 6.875 lbs.
Sapim super light steel spokes
http://www.sapim.be/spokes/butted/super-spokes
110/80/18 Dunlop KR145A race tire
220-320 Gafier wave rotor knock off -picked to hub adapt
Keep Lockheed art deco with trimed, center drilled puck or 220 mm lighter caliper w better pad rotor composites.
What do Wheels Weigh?

Replace steel bearing spacer with alu drilled/notched tube.
Alu axle nut on drilled through axle


What do Wheels Weigh?
 
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An addition to Ken's posting:

Bare chromed steel WM2x19 front rim – 2.53 kg
Bare Excel PS (pro series) non-shouldered (the lightest) WM2x19 front rim - 1.84 kg
Bare Excel A60 series x-tra strong, non-shouldered WM2X19 rim - 2.54 kg
Bare Excel Takasago sholdered WM2x19 rim - 2.38 kg
Bare DID shouldered WM2x19 rim - 2.36 kg
Bare Pro-Wheel Components shouldered WM2x19 rear rim - 2.99 kg

There seems to be only a small gain in flanged or strengthened alloy over steel rims, and the weight saving should focus on the hubs.

-Knut
 
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On a disc-braked bike, the hub is usually a spool, so reducing weight is difficult. Reducing weight of a drum brake change the way it handles heat and cause brake fade to happen sooner. I have two discs which are hollow ventilated. They came off a TZ350 Yamaha.
 
Aplogies for being off topic but could not resist temptation to weigh my Velo Venom front wheel itcomes in at 24lbs!
wonder where Hall Green got the depleted uranium from ?
 
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