Wet sump start

comnoz · Dec 4, 2014

Here is a little video I made of me starting my bike after setting three weeks with a crankcase full of oil. As the cases cleared the air blew the oil all over the camera and everything else nearby. Jim

SquareHead · Dec 4, 2014

Jim,

Thanks for the video. So, if I am coming to the correct conclusion, on your bike there is really no need to manually drain the sump and refill the oil tank. Just kick it over a couple of times with the ignition off and cycle oil back into the tank. What modifications, if any, have you made on your oil system? Any valves, balls, etc.? Any pump modifications?

Can I assume that any Commando, barring defects or problems, will react the same way as yours?

Can I also assume that the breather modification makes this easier and safer?

Thanks again, very informative!

Chris

comnoz · Dec 4, 2014

SquareHead said:
Jim,

Thanks for the video. So, if I am coming to the correct conclusion, on your bike there is really no need to manually drain the sump and refill the oil tank. Just kick it over a couple of times with the ignition off and cycle oil back into the tank. What modifications, if any, have you made on your oil system? Any valves, balls, etc.? Any pump modifications?

Can I assume that any Commando, barring defects or problems, will react the same way as yours?

Can I also assume that the breather modification makes this easier and safer?

Thanks again, very informative!

Chris

The only advantage my bike has as far as wet-sumping is a tight clearance oil pump. On my bike it takes about 3 weeks to wet sump enough to uncover the screen. I never drain the crankcase before starting. I just push it through twice and then start it.
The crankcase reed breather does get the oil back to the tank quickly. The breather that mounts to the rear of the case is slightly faster than the sump plug breather because the passages are larger. Jim

tomspro · Dec 4, 2014

do i see plasma coming thru?
:mrgreen:

auldblue · Dec 4, 2014

My 69 bike used to wet sump badly when first purchased, after swoping oil tank and then swop back , then using pipe clamp for a month or two. And swoping to 20/50 old style classicas opposed to mono grade oil it now no longer seems to wet sump and starts usually first kick at worst second.
What do you think has made this happen? It has sat for four weeks oil in middle of sight tube . if the level has dropped it is not by much ant the oil return seems good. I'm just curious why this should happen could it be the position of the pistons at rest?

J

comnoz · Dec 4, 2014

auldblue said:
My 69 bike used to wet sump badly when first purchased, after swoping oil tank and then swop back , then using pipe clamp for a month or two. And swoping to 20/50 old style classicas opposed to mono grade oil it now no longer seems to wet sump and starts usually first kick at worst second.
What do you think has made this happen? It has sat for four weeks oil in middle of sight tube . if the level has dropped it is not by much ant the oil return seems good. I'm just curious why this should happen could it be the position of the pistons at rest?

J

It could be partially related to rod position at rest.

I could also be because of the oil. Old style 20-50 oil is 20 weight base stock with a lot of viscosity improvers added. VI additives are long chain molecules that flow very slowly through small clearances. They are temperature sensitive and short lived at high temps.

Mono grade oils don't have many VI additives. They are thick when cold but don't have the long chain molecules. Jim

Hobot · Dec 4, 2014

Finally someone seeing wisdom of Combat piston driven breather hose extra oil return path. Please check my logic. Majority of wear occurs on start up w/o oil pressure. There's couple reports out of injuring engine by turning them till oil seen at tank before initial new build start rather than after diddling in as much oil as can just start and go up to cam surf rpm - and another one that only started a few minutes or less through out a winter to be toast by spring. So why in the world would you not just start right up, if not adding a bit of oil over screen 1st? BTW where does the oil level land when cases full wet sumped?

comnoz · Dec 4, 2014

tomspro said:
do i see plasma coming thru?
:mrgreen:

No plasma -yet. 8)

But I have been slowly getting the bike set up for an extended test session with all the monitoring equipment.
I will be logging fuel mixtures, 5 exhaust gasses, dual EGT, cylinder head temp, oil temp, torque,rpm, speed and load plus all the fuel injection and timing control.
I will do a 30 mile loop on the dyno under varying conditions and get some up to date baseline readings. That way I will know if there is anything to the "plasma" ignition once I get to installing it.
I might even do a video if anyone want to watch. Jim

MikeM · Dec 4, 2014

Is that a truly fuel injected Norton that I see?
How is that working out?

WZ507 · Dec 4, 2014

comnoz said:
But I have been slowly getting the bike set up for an extended test session with all the monitoring equipment.
I will be logging fuel mixtures, 5 exhaust gasses, dual EGT, cylinder head temp, oil temp, torque,rpm, speed and load plus all the fuel injection and timing control.
I will do a 30 mile loop on the dyno under varying conditions and get some up to date baseline readings. That way I will know if there is anything to the "plasma" ignition once I get to installing it.
I might even do a video if anyone want to watch. Jim

Make the video - eager to watch it.

Tintin · Dec 4, 2014

comnoz said:
It could be partially related to rod position at rest.

That was one thing I noticed on my Atlas: Kicking it into compression after stopping the engine meant a few weeks as opposed to a few days for wet-sumping. The difference in levels from and therefore the relevant pressure differential from the oil tank level to the lowest oil exit point is one effect, the fact that the rotary breather is closed is another one. Both obviously make a small difference and thus the process takes much longer.

Tim

madass140 · Dec 5, 2014

maybe we need a decompression lever, kick it over 4 or 5 times and away you go, dont worry about wet sumping again.
I;m surprised to see the oil come back so quickly with a couple of kicks, a good insight, thanks Jim.

olChris · Dec 5, 2014

madass140 said:
I;m surprised to see the oil come back so quickly with a couple of kicks, a good insight, thanks Jim.

Your surprised, im shocked. But what do i know.. I will pull the plugs on my 2 bikes after i have opened the valve and let sit for a week or more so that the oil pump is submerged in oil.. mmmmh be interesting for me... I'd expect 10-20 kick-overs to do same... Although both of my pumps that give 20-30lbs psi, hot at 1000rpm are just oil pumps with no extra special attention...

SquareHead · Dec 5, 2014

comnoz said:
tomspro said:

do i see plasma coming thru?
:mrgreen:

Click to expand...

No plasma -yet. 8)

But I have been slowly getting the bike set up for an extended test session with all the monitoring equipment.
I will be logging fuel mixtures, 5 exhaust gasses, dual EGT, cylinder head temp, oil temp, torque,rpm, speed and load plus all the fuel injection and timing control.
I will do a 30 mile loop on the dyno under varying conditions and get some up to date baseline readings. That way I will know if there is anything to the "plasma" ignition once I get to installing it.
I might even do a video if anyone want to watch. Jim

I would definitely love to see the video!

dennisgb · Dec 5, 2014

WZ507 said:
comnoz said:

Make the video - eager to watch it.

Click to expand...

+1 Yes Jim, there could be a lot of valuable information with all of those tests run together. Do a video for sure.

I take it you have the engine back together

What did you decide on components or is that a secret?

comnoz · Dec 5, 2014

dennisgb said:
WZ507 said:

comnoz said:

Make the video - eager to watch it.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

+1 Yes Jim, there could be a lot of valuable information with all of those tests run together. Do a video for sure.

I take it you have the engine back together What did you decide on components or is that a secret?

The engine is back together. I just gave the cylinders a light plateau hone and installed new coated stainless rings. It will have to do until I get the new billet motor built. I have put around 50 miles on it and it seems to run very well but I haven't done a leakdown test again.
I have to make up a couple more cables to get everything connected. If things go right I may be able to do the run this weekend.
I also will need to experiment with a video camera and see if I can get all 4 video screens legible. Jim

comnoz · Dec 5, 2014

MikeM said:
Is that a truly fuel injected Norton that I see?
How is that working out?

Yes, It's been fuel injected for around 10 years now. I will never go back to carbs. Jim

Hobot · Dec 5, 2014

Plasma fired fuel injected wet sump ignoring Command features sound like high times to me. Question
1. does speed of kick over change the amount of oil seen returning to tank?

comnoz · Dec 5, 2014

hobot said:
Plasma fired fuel injected wet sump ignoring Command features sound like high times to me. Question
1. does speed of kick over change the amount of oil seen returning to tank?

Yes, The slower you push it over the more oil returns with each revolution. If you can stop at BDC a lot of oil will return with one stroke.

Hobot · Dec 5, 2014

Ok that makes sense d/t the longer time for piston decent compression to act on the oil. Still trying to figure out if better to just start up and rev up [if ya know its enough oil somewhere] rather than bother draining and adding to tank.

Wet sump start

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