Wet sump question

MikeM · Oct 10, 2015

I know, beating the dead horse. Does anyone know how much oil in the sump will cause the dreaded smoking, puking etc?
I have let the tank go down about a quart or quart and 1/2 on the stick with no issues. How low can it go?
I am going to change the oil for the winter and only put about a quart in the tank. Its all going to the crank anyway and there is no reason to fill the crankcase with 3 new quarts.
A quart in the crankcase shouldnt seep into the primary should it? Thoughts? Suggestions? It will sit for about 6 months.
I hate winter.

Fast Eddie · Oct 10, 2015

If its gonna sit for 6 months, why not just drain the sump and tank?

MikeM · Oct 10, 2015

Fast Eddie said:
If its gonna sit for 6 months, why not just drain the sump and tank?

Any issues leaving both dry? I thought a little oil in there would help with moisture.

pete.v · Oct 10, 2015

FWIW, the normal amount of oil left in the sump after shut-down drain down from the head is about 7oz. I am sure many people have drained their sumps to find this amount or a little more and started crying to the forum of wet sump woes.

Anyhow, leaving a cup or 2 in the sump is not a bad thing and probably a good idea.
For me, I just turn the ball valve off and walk away.

L.A.B. · Oct 10, 2015

http://rehermorrison.myshopify.com//pro ... 4mm-thread

rwalker28 · Oct 10, 2015

Hi LAB, have you used these before? I can't tell from the picture, can one get the desiccant out and bake the water out to reuse it, or is it a one time deal? In the lab at work, we bake the desiccant out repeatedly and if we dont mis-handle it, it lasts a very long time.

L.A.B. said:
http://rehermorrison.myshopify.com//products/dehydrator-engine-desiccant-spark-plug-14mm-thread

L.A.B. · Oct 10, 2015

rwalker28 said:
have you used these before?

No.

rwalker28 said:
I can't tell from the picture, can one get the desiccant out and bake the water out to reuse it,

Some-but perhaps not all?:

http://blog.skygeek.com/2013/03/dehydrator-plugs/

jug · Oct 10, 2015

pete.v said:
.

Anyhow, leaving a cup or 2 in the sump is not a bad thing and probably a good idea.
For me, I just turn the ball valve off and walk away.

Yeah, but ya gotta remember to turn it back on . LOL Ask me how I know. :cry:

pete.v · Oct 10, 2015

jug said:
pete.v said:

.

Anyhow, leaving a cup or 2 in the sump is not a bad thing and probably a good idea.
For me, I just turn the ball valve off and walk away.

Click to expand...

Yeah, but ya gotta remember to turn it back on . LOL Ask me how I know. :cry:

For sure. We don't need to expound and I don't recommend it, but it works for me.
I have a 4 step procedure for start up and shutdown.
Oil on, Gas on, Mag switch on, key on (for lights and such).

rwalker28 · Oct 10, 2015

If you could rig it up so the oil valve was a ball valve and the handle was over the ignition so you could not put the key in unless you opened the valve, that would protect the machine.

pete.v said:
jug said:

pete.v said:

.

Anyhow, leaving a cup or 2 in the sump is not a bad thing and probably a good idea.
For me, I just turn the ball valve off and walk away.

Click to expand...

Yeah, but ya gotta remember to turn it back on . LOL Ask me how I know. :cry:

Click to expand...

For sure. We don't need to expound and I don't recommend it, but it works for me.
I have a 4 step procedure for start up and shutdown.
Oil on, Gas on, Mag switch on, key on (for lights and such).

worntorn · Oct 10, 2015

Or just hold the ignition key captive in the valve until the valve is turned back on.
Vincents wet sump too, even with a brand new 2 start Maughans pump in an all new engine.

This has been working well for me, although the memory is not doing so well. I attempted to start the bike today and for a second wondered where the ignition key had gotten to. 'Oh yeah, it's in the oil valve now"
Without a failsafe I would blow the thing up for sure.
I have to fit a few more of these things, nice to just turn on the valve and go, plus no oil on the floor.
Glen

click · Oct 11, 2015

worntorn said:
Or just hold the ignition key captive in the valve until the valve is turned back on.
Vincents wet sump too, even with a brand new 2 start Maughans pump in an all new engine.

This has been working well for me, although the memory is not doing so well. I attempted to start the bike today and for a second wondered where the ignition key had gotten to. 'Oh yeah, it's in the oil valve now"
Without a failsafe I would blow the thing up for sure.
I have to fit a few more of these things, nice to just turn on the valve and go, plus no oil on the floor.
Glen

Hi Glen,

Is this something you made up yourself or it it comercially available?

Thanks in advance

Kevin

J. M. Leadbeater · Oct 11, 2015

If I remember correctly someone in the Matchless Owners Club made valves for sale to the public with a switch such that the ignition could only be on with the valve in the open position.

L.A.B. · Oct 11, 2015

J. M. Leadbeater said:
If I remember correctly someone in the Matchless Owners Club made valves for sale to the public with a switch such that the ignition could only be on with the valve in the open position.

There's already been several discussions about "ignition cut-out" anti-drain valves:
Some examples:

DogT said:

daveparry said:

Spooky said:

DogT · Oct 11, 2015

I don't know if they're still available but IronJohns on the forum used to sell a brass valve with an ignition cut off switch too, it was about $125 as I remember. That's mine with the micro-switch, happy with it so far. 1/2" pex valve fits in the oil line just fine but I don't ride in the wet. It could be water-proofed with a magnet and prox switch on the valve driving a relay somewhere less subject to water. It's not as obvious looking at the bike when you're not just look right at the switch like the picture.

worntorn · Oct 11, 2015

click said:
Hi Glen,

Is this something you made up yourself or it it comercially available?

Thanks in advance

Kevin

I bought a stainless steel ball valve and altered it such that the ignition key is needed to operate the valve and the key cannot be removed with the oil off.
It's pretty simple to do and there are no wires or a switch to deal with or go wrong. The also keeps the appearance quite sleek and tidy.
Now I have used this one for a season and cannot see a way to make it fail, I might make a batch for sale this winter if time permits and if there is interest.

Glen

click · Oct 11, 2015

worntorn said:
click said:

Hi Glen,

Is this something you made up yourself or it it comercially available?

Thanks in advance

Kevin

Click to expand...

I bought a stainless steel ball valve and altered it such that the ignition key is needed to operate the valve and the key cannot be removed with the oil off.
It's pretty simple to do and there are no wires or a switch to deal with or go wrong. The also keeps the appearance quite sleek and tidy.

Now I have used this one for a season and cannot see a way to make it fail, I might make a batch for sale this winter if time permits and if there is interest.

Glen

Hi Glen,

That's very clever!!! The electrical switch types, IMHO, create another possible point of failure for the electrical system.

You would sell at least one to me

MikeM · Oct 11, 2015

Ehh, does anyone remember my original question about how much oil in the crankcase will cause the wetsump issue of puking, smoking etc?
Just looking to find out when its necessary to drain the cases before starting.

pete.v · Oct 11, 2015

It's hard to say. Sure, the tank being emptied overtime from sitting is probably a sure thing to blow oil. If you are a quart low when you know you were topped off before might be too much also. How well your particular machine is sealed up, if you have a good breather, if it is the low 1972 type or any other type, how thin or thick your oil is, how much oil is in the tank that is available to seep by, and probably many other things are all factors on how much oil in your particular crankcase will cause weepage, blowby and smoking.

So you see, I do not believe there is a magic number to shoot for and if you find what it is for you, feel free to share it. If a few dozen others share their numbers, we can assume an average, but it will still be an assumption for all others to concider

As I mentioned before, the normal residual amount of oil in the crankcase from the usual drain down after a ride is about 5 to 7oz. I 'll bet this number can vary also, but not by much.

MikeM · Oct 11, 2015

pete.v said:
It's hard to say. Sure, the tank being emptied overtime from sitting is probably a sure thing to blow oil. If you are a quart low when you know you were topped off before might be too much also. How well your particular machine is sealed up, if you have a good breather, if it is the low 1972 type or any other type, how thin or thick your oil is, how much oil is in the tank that is available to seep by, and probably many other things are all factors on how much oil in your particular crankcase will cause weepage, blowby and smoking.

So you see, I do not believe there is a magic number to shoot for and if you find what it is for you, feel free to share it. If a few dozen others share their numbers, we can assume an average, but it will still be an assumption for all others to concider

As I mentioned before, the normal residual amount of oil in the crankcase from the usual drain down after a ride is about 5 to 7oz. I 'll bet this number can vary also, but not by much.

I will share and say that I have started it with the tank down about 1 1/2 quarts low, knowing that it was at the top mark previously. No ill effects.

Wet sump question

MikeM

Fast Eddie

MikeM

pete.v

L.A.B.

Moderator

rwalker28

L.A.B.

Moderator

jug

pete.v

rwalker28

worntorn

click

J. M. Leadbeater

L.A.B.

Moderator

DogT

worntorn

click

MikeM

pete.v

MikeM

Similar threads