Uprated charging system

Hello all,

My mkv Interstate is quietly coming along, after having been laid up for a few years, I am now looking at the charging system, and have decided to upgrade, trouble is, am getting a bit confused as to what's available!.

My current set up, pretty much standard, RM21, or maybe an RM19?, 120 watts, solid state regulator and rectifier, fitted years ago, capacitor, boyer ignition, which I know is not part of the charging system!.

OK, I want to go over to a three phase high output alternator, like the idea of a boyer powerbox, for the ability to run with out a battery, also thinking of either a tri spark or maybe a pazon ignition.

Now here is where I am getting muddled up, RM23?, RM24?, the mk3 high output stator, which I have found online, looks a good price for genuine Lucas, from Mike Boulton motorcycles, any one used them?, would that one be three phase?, seems to be listed as an RM27!.

Andover Norton list an upgrade kit, but they say the RM23 is the rotor!, then in the exploded parts diagram they say both the stator and rotor are RM23!, I thought the RM23 was the 180 watt three phase?, they also list a podtronics powerbox, would this allow the Interstate to run with out a battery?, just like the boyer powerbox.

So, I had thought of an 180 watt three phase stator, which I always took to be the RM23, a new Lucas rotor, a boyer powerbox with the charging light control, and at some point a tri spark ignition, sound good?, has anyone got the above fitted?,

Thanks in advance,

John

mkv750 said:

Now here is where I am getting muddled up, RM23?, RM24?, the mk3 high output stator, which I have found online, looks a good price for genuine Lucas, from Mike Boulton motorcycles, any one used them?, would that one be three phase?, seems to be listed as an RM27!.

Andover Norton list an upgrade kit, but they say the RM23 is the rotor!, then in the exploded parts diagram they say both the stator and rotor are RM23!, I thought the RM23 was the 180 watt three phase?,

Click to expand...

The RM23 stator (180W 850 Mk3) is single-phase.
The RM24 stator was the original three-phase version.


Note that the Mike Boulton website uses same picture for more than one stator type, so the photo of the "RM27" stator (marked "10A") is in fact the 120W single-phase RM21 replica.

I have wondered about uprated alternators. I still run the original equipment on my 71 750 and my 74 850 and have never had a battery problem that was not because of an old, unused battery. Why do we need a bigger output when we used the h4 bulbs. sorry can remember the wattage but maybe 50/60 w. I have run heavy guage wires for both power and earth direct from the batter and through 2 relays. I have very bright lights and still don't have a problem with charging. The 750 has points and the 850 has a Boyer.
Why do we need an uprated alternator?

mkv750 said:

So, I had thought of an 180 watt three phase stator, which I always took to be the RM23

Click to expand...

I'm in the process of replacing isolastics and a few other items, and, since the primary's apart, I opted to "upgrade" to this 16A/200W single-phase alternator http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0862520515. It is a direct replacement for the stock unit. I hope to be back together before the end of this April, so I'll let you know how it does.

Nater_Potater said:

mkv750 said:

So, I had thought of an 180 watt three phase stator, which I always took to be the RM23

Click to expand...

I'm in the process of replacing isolastics and a few other items, and, since the primary's apart, I opted to "upgrade" to this 16A/200W single-phase alternator http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0862520515. It is a direct replacement for the stock unit. I hope to be back together before the end of this April, so I'll let you know how it does.

Click to expand...

I got one 2 weeks ago, but used the original rotor as the magnets seemed good and it put out 14.7V -( you have to uprate the regulator & rectifier above the original 120W RM21) - but checking it the other day, I'm suspecting its gone bad....sub 12V AC from the wires off the stator at 3,000RPM. No visible burn marks on the unit, so I'm checking out the whole unit it this weekend.

I installed the hi-output stator along with the proper rectifier-regulator(Podtronics) along with the original stator and have had good luck with it so far after
about 4000 miles.I hope I am not jinxing myself for this reply
YING

kerinorton said:

I have wondered about uprated alternators. I still run the original equipment on my 71 750 and my 74 850 and have never had a battery problem that was not because of an old, unused battery. Why do we need a bigger output when we used the h4 bulbs. sorry can remember the wattage but maybe 50/60 w. I have run heavy guage wires for both power and earth direct from the batter and through 2 relays. I have very bright lights and still don't have a problem with charging. The 750 has points and the 850 has a Boyer.
Why do we need an uprated alternator?

Click to expand...

+1, single phase, rectifier, zener, 45/45 H4 halogen, AGM battery is always topped up.

mkv750 said:

Now here is where I am getting muddled up, RM23?, RM24?, the mk3 high output stator, which I have found online, looks a good price for genuine Lucas, from Mike Boulton motorcycles, any one used them?, would that one be three phase?, seems to be listed as an RM27!.

John

Click to expand...

L.A.B. is quite correct. I'd also add that all the RM19,RM20,RM21,RM23 Stators were SINGLE phase. Only the RM24 units are THREE phase, and have 3 leads and 9 poles. Lucas originally made the RM24 LU47244 which gave out 14.5A at 5000rpm, and RM24 LU47252 - 10.5A at 5000rpm, in about 1978.

Also, Lucas don't make these units anymore (or Rotors for that matter), hence the 'good price' for Genuine Lucas. Those particular stators are made by LAP Electrical in Birmingham.

The 'advantage' of Three phase over single phase was always deemed to be greater output at lower RPM, say 2400.
It's a personal thing I guess, but I tend to agree with Kerinorton and Concours regarding hi-output stators.....

I also favour the 200W stator upgrade and see no need to go three phase (unless maybe you want to plug in a heated vest and heated bar grips :shock: ). I bought one from Paul Goff and fitted it to my electric start Trident and am more than happy with it.

ML said:

I got one 2 weeks ago, but used the original rotor as the magnets seemed good and it put out 14.7V -( you have to uprate the regulator & rectifier above the original 120W RM21) - but checking it the other day, I'm suspecting its gone bad....sub 12V AC from the wires off the stator at 3,000RPM. No visible burn marks on the unit, so I'm checking out the whole unit it this weekend.

Click to expand...

checked it out - no problem, human error.

Thanks for the reply's, some good food for thought!.

ml, sure glad you're uprated stator is good!, sounds a good upgrade, glad you are happy with youres pdl999.

Thanks for the write up on the RM24 lab, thats the one I am thinking of, I do like the higher output at lower revs, I do see what you mean kerinorton, concours, I must admit I never had any trouble with the standard set up, I actually think its a really good charging system, simple and reliable, the ability to run with out a battery is great, I have tried it, even worked with the boyer fitted!, but I would like more power, for some extra lights, perhaps heated grips etc.

Ba10boon, interesting, can't say I am at all surprised to hear that Lucas do not make the stators or rotors any more, in fact I believe Lucas was sold off a while back?, I take it LAP electrical have the rights to call their products "genuine Lucas" now?, as is the case with so many branded names these days, kind of, dare I say, genuine Norton parts! from Andover, of which I buy with complete confidence I should add!.

Thanks nater patater, would be very interested to hear how you get on, hope its a good upgrade for you, looks a nice bit of kit.

Ying, so you have the RM24?, lets hope it lasts for years!, I will go for this one myself, I do like the higher charge rate at lower revs, where I live a lot of riding is at slower speeds, seems to be a town/roundabouts every other mile!!, 30MPH speed limits every where!.

So, an RM 24 14.5 amp stator, new rotor, boyer powerbox, I should be good to go, thanks for the reply's all, very helpful indeed,

John

mkv750 said:

Ba10boon, interesting, can't say I am at all surprised to hear that Lucas do not make the stators or rotors any more, in fact I believe Lucas was sold off a while back?, I take it LAP electrical have the rights to call their products "genuine Lucas" now?, as is the case with so many branded names these days, kind of, dare I say, genuine Norton parts! from Andover, of which I buy with complete confidence I should add!.

John

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+1 on Andover. I've been happy with the 'majority' of Andover parts over the years, and yes they have a legitimate license to use the 'Norton' trademark from the owners. The 'Genuine' branding of any product line is a contentious issue as a product can be made in 2014 , in a state of the art factory in Birmingham, or in China for that matter, and be of the highest possible engineering quality, but does that make it Genuine?

As for LAP Electrical, I honestly don't know with total confidence the answer to your question.
There is a fairly straightforward statement on the Lucas TRW website, on the 'Genuine Parts Centre' page :-

http://www.lucas.info/index.php?p1=5&p2=9

As I read it, if any Lucas product comes with that Green label, then it's Genuine.

Hello Ba10Boon,

Yes indeed, once the original company/factory has gone, then the "genuine" items that follow, whether licensed or not!, can be quite hit and miss, luckily there are exceptions, Andover Norton happily included, they list on their website, under new products, Lucas/Podtronic 3-Phase Alternator Upgrade Kit, includes genuine Lucas RM23 rotor, Lucas RM24 stator and 200w Podtronics powerbox,
I guess it would be highly unlikely that Andover would not use the "genuine" article then.

They do strangely list the stator as an RM23 under the exploded parts list!.

It is an interesting question, just what does make an item genuine, at the other end of the scale we have certain "genuine Norvil" parts that I would not touch with a very long bargepole!!, unless from Mr Hemmings of course!,

John

mkv750 said:

They do strangely list the stator as an RM23 under the exploded parts list!.

Click to expand...

Which exploded parts list? :? As the three-phase RM24 alternator wasn't original equipment on any standard model Commando.

Hello Lab,

Sorry, guess that was a bit misleading on my part.

Its on the Andover Norton website, under the web shop and price list, click on browse and order Norton Commando spares, then select the model, which for me is 750.850 1973, then click on Chaincases, Chains, Sprockets, Clutch, Alternator, and the exploded parts list comes up, http://www.nortonmotors.de/ANIL/Norton% ... del=n750_1, click on a part to show the part number and price, I see that the RM23 is listed for 1973 onwards.

The upgrade kit I mentioned, http://www.nortonmotors.de/ANIL/Norton% ... art=067329, is as you quite rightly say, not standard!.

They do list the rotor as an RM23, in the upgrade kit, which of course its not, its all these numbers which were confusing me!.

Would I be right in thinking the standard stator, up until the mk3, would have been the RM21?,

John

mkv750 said:

Its on the Andover Norton website, under the web shop and price list, click on browse and order Norton Commando spares, then select the model, which for me is 750.850 1973, then click on Chaincases, Chains, Sprockets, Clutch, Alternator, and the exploded parts list comes up, http://www.nortonmotors.de/ANIL/Norton% ... del=n750_1, click on a part to show the part number and price, I see that the RM23 is listed for 1973 onwards.

Click to expand...

OK, thanks.

mkv750 said:

Would I be right in thinking the standard stator, up until the mk3, would have been the RM21?,

Click to expand...

Yes, the 120W RM21 was standard for all Commandos except the '74 JPN replica and all 850 Mk.3 models (180W single-phase RM23 with twin Zeners and 2 diode 2DV 406 rectifier).

I have been using a 3 Phase High output alternator from Sparx with great success. I run a Pazon ignition,with a Boyer Power Box. I wired all of my bikes negative ground. I have had no problems charging the battery and run a halogen headlamp. I use this set up on 4 vintage British Bikes. Having a high output alternator is a must do mod in my opinion......Skip

mkv750 said:

Hello Ba10Boon,

Yes indeed, once the original company/factory has gone, then the "genuine" items that follow, whether licensed or not!, can be quite hit and miss, luckily there are exceptions, Andover Norton happily included, they list on their website, under new products, Lucas/Podtronic 3-Phase Alternator Upgrade Kit, includes genuine Lucas RM23 rotor, Lucas RM24 stator and 200w Podtronics powerbox,
I guess it would be highly unlikely that Andover would not use the "genuine" article then.

Click to expand...

Well yes, I'd agree with that.
Interestingly though I was looking over the weekend for some new Stem indicators, and saw these listings :-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OFFER-NEW-SET ... 1276152986

To quote the small print - "Also, the word LUCAS has been replaced by the word LAP on the main body"

Further investigation found this listing :-

http://britishbikebits.com/lucas-short- ... 0VQY3mPKUk

Again to quote the small print - "Now branded LAP"

Weird that both sellers are still selling the indicators as Genuine Lucas.

Further Poirot like, but bored, searching found details of the Genuine Lucas distributors/licensees :-

http://www.lucaselectrical.co.uk/contac ... trical.php

Noticeably, no mention of LAP, but Elta Lighting yes.

Elta Lighting states on it's website :-

http://www.elta.co.uk/aboutus.html

To quote :-
"During September 2004 Elta Lighting acquired the UK license for the Lucas brand from TRW Automotive. This means that the Lucas Automotive Bulb and Electrical Switchgear programmes are both available from Elta Lighting. In addition to these products supplied by Elta Lighting the full Lucas product range is available in the UK, please follow the Lucas link on the main menu. "

Now I may be putting 2 and 2 together here and getting 5, but I would surmise that maybe LAP (who have made the stators and rotors for many years, as well as the indicators) have been slapped by Elta Lighting or Lucas, for using the Lucas name for selling products as Genuine Lucas, when actually they have no right to do so (and for at least 10 years, if Elta acquired the licence in 2004). If this isn't the case, then why would they change the stamping on the indicators from 'LUCAS' to 'LAP'?

Easiest way to find out, would be just to email Elta Lighting or Lucas themselves.

At the end of the day, who really cares John? As long as you get the right quality products for your bike, then that's all that really matters! :wink:

BA10BOON said:

http://www.elta.co.uk/aboutus.html

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"...the world renowned Lucas brand"? MUST. TRY. TO. BREATH!

I guess you could say "world renowned", but that doesn't necessarily denote "good"...

If you call, or email Roger at RGM he'll give you a good no-nonsense explanation of what fits, what benefits, what pros and cons, etc. He stocks many different options from many different suppliers, so you know he's not just selling what he has. It's basically knowledgable and impartial advice.

I did this and then ordered from him, happy in the knowledge it would at least all fit function correctly together!

His prices are good too. And his delivery time is excellent.