Ugrade brake: Lockheed plus Ninja

jaydee75

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I am in the process of upgrading my front brake. I had initially planned to mount a bigger, lighter rotor with a Brembo caliper as others have done. I got a disc off a Kawa ZX6 first and mounted it to my wheel. I like the look and wondered if I could use the stock caliper with it.
I'm in the process now of making a mount, but here is a picture of the wheel with the disc. I chose the ZX6 disc because it has an offset that will be easy to fit to the Norton caliper, it has a hub that will accomodate the mount studs, and I could get it for $30 on ebay.

Wheel:
ZX6DiscOnWheel_zpsq4a6raxr.jpg


More to follow:
 
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I doubt the disc will improve braking much. The single biggest improvement is to get the caliper to master cylinder ratio correct. 27:1 is where you want to be. There's a ton of info on this forum about upgrading the Norton front disc brake. I will caution you, if you don't have the aforementioned correct ratio you won't have a good brake, no matter how much you spend.
 

manx850

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Buy the Andover Norton Grimeca MC kit for the MK3...It works very well & fits properly, the disc is not the problem & will make no difference. I got mine from Clubman Racing.....It actually stops the bike.
 
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I am in jaydee camp vision, put on a bigger OD rotor then mount the sculpted Lockheed caliper mount on and clean up and go. A few factoids though, the large single puck may extend beyond the rotor edge to get puck clearance from the rotor to center fasteners, so less wide contact area but the larger OD rotor contact also gives more leverage to resist wheel spin and why they are so large on fast cycles. The narrower friction band is also better d/t less temp difference edge to inner so less distortion dragging a long time or hard use repeated. I figure if I was only worried about tire grip on lightened factory rotor and resleeve to 22-ish ratio then should be ok ratio with the improved rotor with modern mid 20s ratio bar master cylinder. I will drind or water jet off the friction pad excess hang over and maybe drill it too. I expect better slow control with bigger lighter rotor and bit more concentrated pad pressure being slightly smaller in size. Also might try Ludwigs notching of the steel piston rims bearing on puck. If we do not hear back after a while we will not know if brake failed and took ya out or brake so grippy it threw ya over bars to get run over.
 
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If I remember correctly, with a smaller pad area in this scenario you will get no PERCEIVED concentration in pad pressure on the disc, as the pressure is governed by the MC and the caliper. The system will only generate say for argument 10psi on the pad, from the caliper, say for an area of 4sqin, reducing the overhanging friction material will reduce the 4sqin to say 3sqin but you will still have the same 10psi coming from the caliper acting on the pad backing, you have lost the additional friction area with no gain in braking, just increased heat and wear on the contact area. The pressure, the piston area and pad friction area are interlinked, if was all that simple with the existing setup then we would all be just reducing the friction material area on the exisitng pads, and using the stock caliper and MC.
Hope it all goes well as it will look smart when completed.
 

Nater_Potater

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jaydee75 said:
Something to watch for if using this combo; the Lockheed caliper is made for action against a rigid rotor, while the ZX6 rotor floats, since its caliper has one side fixed (pistons on the outside). With the proposed setup, there's nothing to keep the rotor/piston combo centered in the cutout through the caliper. If you're going to the trouble of building a bracket for the caliper, I'd highly recommend using the ZX6 caliper (or equivalent).

That being said, if you really want to keep the stock caliper (I like the looks of them, too), some means of centering the rotor will need to be devised. The buttons that locate the rotor to the carrier are wider than the two to allow sideways movement, so something could be done with these to center the rotor while still allowing for some thermal creep.

As for hydraulic ratio, some braking advantage will be had if the rotor is larger in diameter than the stock Norton (it looks to be). Don't discount a smaller bore for the master cylinder though, as that plays a large part in brake control. Keep us posted!

Nathan
 
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None of us yet know how big ole Lockheed caliper will work on larger dia. rotor but to your points above...

If the caliper is mounted pretty close to centered on the rotor then dual action Lockheed pucks should shift in their bores a bit assymetric to put even pressure on both sides of the rotor and if rotor a bit semi floating too then should be even better keeping even pressure on both sides taking up some rotor imperfections. To make sure Peels caliper was centered when mount welded down I took assembles forks with bar and lever mounted + wheel with rotor mounted to welder with the caliper clamped on rotor by zip tied back brake lever, in position I wanted it then welder tacked the crude mount plate to slider then I ground the ugliness off. Never measured anything for simple shadetree perfect.

Takes a fairly deep study in brake tribology to get the reasons for larger rotors with narrower friction bands and smaller multi pads. Pretty straight forward that grabbing a spun wheel closer to its rim gives more leverage than grabbing closer to the axle. As size of rotor increased using one large area pair of friction pad on match width of rotor they found the inside did not get as hot as the outer parts spinning by faster so the heat difference distorted rotor and faded faster. There is good brake effect up to over heating state but likely less heat issue than the smaller thicker undrilled factory rotor and caliper.

Galfer wave rotor people say the friction area is less important than the area of leading rotor/pad edge encounters. These larger rotors have lots more holes or slot edges so would expect as good or better friction than the original rotor even if same pad pressure developed. Alerting brakes away form the normal expected ways is how we learn something new, good or bad so not recommended for the more cautious worry wart naysaying non experimenters. I know one thing for sure it does not take much improvement over factory brake to make tire traction the limiter not ease of squeezing lever which can be crash causing on panic grip if not pre-trained-practiced on what to expect on various conditions. I already know I do not want as powerful easy brake as my dual 320 mm rotor SV650 I can not control as well on instant reflex panic stops on or off pavement.

DSCN2163.jpg
 
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hobot said:
None of us yet know how big ole Lockheed caliper will work on larger dia. rotor

Big in weight only. The ratio of the pad area to weight of bike& rider has to be one of the most anemic ever put on a motorcycle.
Changing MC ratios will make the brake feel better for someone with small hands, but it only mask the problem of a tiny pad area that will overheat every time if used hard. The other option is the standard classic bike solution. Ride slowly when in traffic and when on the highway ride as though you haven't any brakes!
The CNW Brembo, the Madass brake, the brake Eddie (Nigel) used all deal with the overheating/small pad issue. There are others as well. That way you get both an easy pull brake and one that won't disappear when you need it most.
Unfortunately there is no inexpensive way to accomplish this, other than maybe alterring a complete modern but used Ebay purchased brake set to fit on the Commando.

Glen
 
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Glen at least a couple of us disdain the modern utilitarian look of calipers and extra useless mass of 2nd rotor/caliper so are not following the path of just throwing money at it buying someone elses proven upgrade. I can not say I have mastered braking as its scarest thing to control but by golly I had to save my bacon in panic stops many times on various conditions & so far the best brake I have experienced was Peels 13 mm/ 1/2 inch reseelve, SS hose, RGM race lever and lighter factory rotor for ABS like panic safety above 60 mph and care to lighten up grip to keep front squealing howling w/o lock up snatch down, especially in low traction conditions and slopes. Public use trouble is the surprise-fear instants on fairly cool brake not racer level *easier* skill to plan ahead use with time after time refinement in fairly safe conditions to go down. I know in my cases its always the tire traction limiting - not amount of hand grip ease or pad to rotor grip. Last crash Nov/2014 on SuVee d/t over braking I had was steep downhill Gravel with 3 big dogs showing off who was the bravest to cross path- chase something - so after a few dozen yds of gritting teeth barely making tires on pebble noise on both feathered brakes - rear locked up about 12 mph - down I went with kick stand boot peg almost impaling my L calf muscles. Once ya get a brake as effective as my Peel had, swapping ends on lifted rear becomes more work for pilot than lever control. My SuVee will stoppie over its nose before developing as much negative Gs as Peel or even factor Trixie with plain jane factory brake + red hot nail hope in restrictor valve. I practice short stops into gas stations and other places to find my Cdos will lock and stop shorter w/o lifting rear like my modern does that pisses me off in shock after the security of ancient clunker with no restrictor. Ease of squeeze has nil relation to effective slowing so go ahead and put power brakes on if still thinking otherwise.
 
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JimC said:
I doubt the disc will improve braking much. The single biggest improvement is to get the caliper to master cylinder ratio correct. 27:1 is where you want to be. There's a ton of info on this forum about upgrading the Norton front disc brake. I will caution you, if you don't have the aforementioned correct ratio you won't have a good brake, no matter how much you spend.

:clapping hands:
 

jaydee75

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Some of you guys are so negative I don't see how you get anything done.
I am fully aware of the Norton brake shortcomings. I am trying to improve it. Step one is sleeving the mc to 1/2 inch, done with my own design. Step 2 is eliminating the OEM rubber balloon hoses, done. Step 3 is mounting a lighter, 12" dia, higher friction surface rotor, done.
Step 4 was to be mounting a better caliper. While on the way, I am seeing what can be done with the Lockheed brick. Its nothing but work to mount, no cost. The new disc will be offset to be on the exact same centerline as the Norton disc. Pucks will come in from both sides and work fine.
My Norton friction pads measure 42mm dia. The used ZX disc shows 40mm wear pattern, that's close enough for me. I have outlined the pad in white, see pic.
Work in progress.
Jaydee
NortPadOnZXDisc_zpsqws7hztr.jpg
 

Nater_Potater

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jaydee75 said:
Some of you guys are so negative I don't see how you get anything done.
:lol:

jaydee75 said:
My Norton friction pads measure 42mm dia. The used ZX disc shows 40mm wear pattern, that's close enough for me.
Since the pucks have a locator tab that keeps them from rotating, you could trim the friction material away that you don't want touching the rotor, or hanging off the edge. If nothing else, it would help avoid any cocking of the pistons in their bores as the pads wore. Rock on!

Nathan
 
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Be alert the new rotor position does not move caliper toward spokes enough to foul them but seems you know already.
 

jaydee75

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Yes, I'm keeping the caliper in the same side-side position to make sure it clears. I did have to notch the bottom of the caliper a little to clear the new disc's rivets for the floater. So far so good.
Jaydee
 
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Other easy option for the caliper include fitting a Brembo caliper from the 80's / 90's model Ducati's. Seeing as the same lockheed caliper is used front and rear on the Commando, then an adaptor plate made from 1/4 Dural which takes up the offset and provides new mounting holes. Have done this for the rear and it works a treat, takes about an hour to knock up and fit - the idea was not mine it was Norman Whites. The only problem for the MK3 is that the 4 pot Ducati caliper that would fit the front would have the leading smaller piston in the trailing position and thus would not pass an MOT here in the Uk to the observant inpsector, as it would be an incorrectly fitted brake part and thus not fit for purpose.
 
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A few of us just cant give up that much real Commando sculpture regardless if not the hottest brake possible it will be quite good enough. Btw on Peel i set caliper outward as possible leaving only one side of the pad to grind off and nothing off the caliper. Floating disc did give me some pensive moments turning wheel made a clink-tinkle sound I thot might be bearings or alu spacer but was just the rotor flop on it loose mounts, whew. Btw some HD after market brakes have solid mounted rotor but a floating mounted caliper. Modern calipers look like utilitarian items found under hoods of small cars, sheeze.
 
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I made a bracket to mount a Brembo from a Ducati Monster. These are readily available but have a wider mounting bolt pattern so the bracket is fairly large...disk is EBC that I made a spacer to get on center.

Bracket_zpsef031293.jpg
 
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Who did you source the fork brace and triple trees from?

Nice :)


JD


dennisgb said:
I made a bracket to mount a Brembo from a Ducati Monster. These are readily available but have a wider mounting bolt pattern so the bracket is fairly large...disk is EBC that I made a spacer to get on center.

Bracket_zpsef031293.jpg
 
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The fork brace I found on Ebay used. The triple trees are from NYC Norton (Kenny Cummings). I had him modify them to accept 1" bars so I could put modern switch gear, master cylinder and controls on the bike.
 
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got a part# for the ebc?

dennisgb said:
I made a bracket to mount a Brembo from a Ducati Monster. These are readily available but have a wider mounting bolt pattern so the bracket is fairly large...disk is EBC that I made a spacer to get on center.

Bracket_zpsef031293.jpg
 
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