Ugrade brake: Lockheed plus Ninja

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jaydee75 said:
Some of you guys are so negative I don't see how you get anything done

I might be a bit negative on the Lockheed brake after it very nearly cost me my life in the mountains.
I did however manage to get something done about it , shedding some sprung and unsprung mass along the way. The cost was about the same or less than most spend on a tank respray . Now I can and do ride the bike the way I want to and never run out of brake.

Ugrade brake:  Lockheed plus Ninja


Glen
 
Glen this is Life & Death level engineering so could learn something vital by your detailing why you feel Lockheed let you down.

No one but stunt riders practices as hard or in full panic stop or else in all condtions to know its tire traction and pilot control that matter way more than ease of squeeze. I also know about how good a fresh top offed Lockheed feel until one more squeeze fades away, UTIL the micro layer of bubbles is finally flushed out back damn good normal. Anywho the naysayers have spoken what worked better for them so quess a couiple of us hydrib old school fabricators will let ya know if we were too wishful thinking or not.

I had too many wonderful days out cresing and turn blinds >>> missing sections of road, cow herd etc so force myself to test my mettle on maxim pull downs before very far from home. If not spunky energy enough to scare myself not far from home then better be extra slwo and easy before blinds. Keep the tire sounds on the low growl side of SQuechhhout eh.
 
I finished the new mount bracket and got it on the fork. A few details left on hoses and bleeding, but should be ready to try soon.
Ugrade brake:  Lockheed plus Ninja


Jaydee
 
Whilst not attempting to knock the old opposed piston Lockheed brake calipers, did you know that if you fit the four pot calipers you WILL get a “free” servo effect :?: :shock:
Even if you fit the twin pot version on slider you get the same effect-could this be what you are looking for :?:
 
Very eye appealing mount jaydee, especially compared to the bell buttom boot look of the dual puck bolt on mounts, Bernard what do ya mean by servo effect and how does additional pad affect this? One thing I learned the hard way is having too much self energizing brake action like some drums have is about as bad as not having enough brake to squeal or lock tires.
 
Ok, it is finished. It is actually better than I expected. The road test was a joy. With the increased diameter frictional radius it should be 14% stronger due to mechanical advantage alone. The slick hard chrome oem surface has a terrible coefficient of friction and I knew it would improve. The A/N hoses replacing the oem rubber hoses gives a solid feel. The original rotor weighed 5 1/2 pounds, new one a little over 1 pound.
All in all, I am tickled and probably will never add the Brembo caliper I had originally planned.
I'll be at the INOA rally in a couple of weeks if anyone wants to see it.
Here's a few pics:
Ugrade brake:  Lockheed plus Ninja


Ugrade brake:  Lockheed plus Ninja


I used a black Kevlar upper line and a coated ss line for the lower line. They meet at a bulkhead on the lower triple tree.
Ugrade brake:  Lockheed plus Ninja


Line routing plus you can see my oil gauge:
Ugrade brake:  Lockheed plus Ninja


Front view:
Ugrade brake:  Lockheed plus Ninja


Jaydee
 
jaydee75 said:
Ok, it is finished. It is actually better than I expected. The road test was a joy. With the increased diameter frictional radius it should be 14% stronger due to mechanical advantage alone. The slick hard chrome oem surface has a terrible coefficient of friction and I knew it would improve. The A/N hoses replacing the oem rubber hoses gives a solid feel. The original rotor weighed 5 1/2 pounds, new one a little over 1 pound.
All in all, I am tickled and probably will never add the Brembo caliper I had originally planned.
I'll be at the INOA rally in a couple of weeks if anyone wants to see it.

Jaydee

What you have done is a much better upgrade than trying to make the original brake work by increasing the hydraulic ratio.
Using the original caliper and rotor with a small master is a disaster waiting to happen if you ride in the mountains, as it will overheat quickly and then there will be no brakes at all.
See you in NC. Jim
 
Very satisfying to see jaydee and read it increased security. I can trust my logic on this then too, cool. If ya study up on new brake bed in and conditioning one is supposed to try to essentially over heat the brake system beyond anything actually expected but serious repeated pull downs to almost stops but avoiding any lock up at these temp to spot weld roughness on surfaces. This helps cook out solvents and moisture that could vaporize a layer in time of need. Also help develop sense of just how much brake you now have to get away with in a panic.

Comnoz i have tried my scariest-weariest to over heat factory brake but could not after 20-30 min of down hill twistie use pulling down in every open hard as could w/o crashing. Me on Commando to not weight as much as your maybe. Heat spreading tolerance is by far main reason for dual discs not extra power or ease of squeeze. I test panic level pull downs from 100 mph which is less risky getting feel than below 60. About once a season going about the ton a log truck will pull across entering hwy not recognizing how fast I am approaching so get to do it for real too often and learned when in dobut whip er down ahead of time and make up time on the other side of the event. I got my SuVee as a bargin d/t such powerful front brakes newbie dropped it and guess what I almost did too immediately out the shop door into parking lot going about 25 mph lost front but let go in nick of time to save it with fear of the over powerful self energizing character in mind. There is enough extra brake traction on 110 front for me over 100 size i will never fit the highly recommended 100 size again.
 
hobot said:
Very eye appealing mount jaydee, especially compared to the bell buttom boot look of the dual puck bolt on mounts, Bernard what do ya mean by servo effect and how does additional pad affect this? One thing I learned the hard way is having too much self energizing brake action like some drums have is about as bad as not having enough brake to squeal or lock tires.

You have failed to grasp what I have said in a previous thread, so here goes;
When AP Lockheed/Girling where trying to cure the taper wear that appeared on their disc brake pads, they made a four pot caliper, which had the two leading pots at a smaller diameter that the other two. This cured, for the most part the taper on the brake pads, but as an unexpected bonus there was a free brake “servo effect” whereas you need to apply LESS pressure on the lever/brake pedal to make the brake work, as most tin boxes fit a servo to help with the braking;

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-part ... -brake.htm

hope it is crystal clear now :!: :? :shock:
 
Real smart, I think this is one of the best looking brake upgrades I have seen.

Yep sir and improves function too which should put a damper on put downs declaring need of modern multi puck pads scab on bell bottom mount plates. Two features that stand out on real Commandos is the canted engine and skupted calipers as nothing else like it out there.
 
Jaydee75

Beautiful work. I am just starting the reassembly of my 1975 MKIII. I would like to incorporate your brake mod. Would you have parts or plans available for purchase?

Bill
 
hobot said:
Glen this is Life & Death level engineering so could learn something vital by your detailing why you feel Lockheed let you down.
.

Coming down from a summit on switchbacks at a good clip, the brake pads overheated and faded to nothing braking for the third or fourth switchback, I can't remember which. I went off the road and very nearly went over the edge, which would have been game over.

Glen
 
Coming down from a summit on switchbacks at a good clip, the brake pads overheated and faded to nothing braking for the third or fourth switchback, I can't remember which. I went off the road and very nearly went over the edge, which would have been game over. Glen

YIKES, I need to hear stories like this to flash up before i go diving into unknown life depending on no faults pilot or parts. I have seriously tried to create this in stock Lockheed and could not but only after couple-3 days working out seeming micro layer of air bubbles. On the other hand you may be more brave than I and could over heat to brake loss so I would not feel confident upgrading away from Lockheed either. Just more evidence how stupid this hobby is as do not often hear from those that did go off the edge - gone. One good out of state friend took my to Ozark twisties he pulled over at a peak turn pointing out where his best friend on a R1 yama had over braked right over the rail down cliff dead. A few seasons latter Bob sister emailed me he died T-boned on Texas hwy.
Squeal em if ya got em.
 
Real strange on the overheating of a standard caliper and pads, I have accidentally managed to get a warped rear disc to turn blue to the extent the brake jammed on - no fade on that occasion. I let it cool and rode home very slowly with a few cooling stops on the way, gladly it was not a front disc.
 
Its hard for me to conceive how one could get rear brake hot enough wrap disc unless just lightly draging it with toe resting on leverer, BUT I sure do know about sunshine heated or use heated swelling of brake fluid to lock up piston return d/t the lever to plunger space a dash too long - unknown till heat lock up hits and will not let go till cooled off or plunger trimmed. Do not know if that happened to you just makes more sense than rear disc over heating wrap at my level of comprehension so far. I do want to attempt Peel stoppies but will need knee bumpers not to fly over bars before getting rear to lift.
 
Posted this before , but I doubt anyone here did it .
Probably too cheap to be true ?
Well I did it (I like cheap!)and yes it makes a noticeable difference...thanks Ludwig. The modification did co-incide with me losing a pad from its backing (old Brembo) It was inferred I was cheap for leaving them in for so long :wink: New Ferodo platinums work fine with the piston step.
 
ludwig said:
Of course , correct position of the pistons becomes critical then .
Posted this before , but I doubt anyone here did it .
Ugrade brake:  Lockheed plus Ninja
I'm interested in trying this, but am apprehensive about keeping the piston's rotation checked. Instead, could a shim be added between the piston and puck, since the caliper has provisions to keep the puck from rotating? I'm thinking it could be shaped just like the puck's steel backing plate, but with a section removed as shown in your picture of the trimmed pistons. No rotation, and easily reversible by merely removing the shims. I may try this approach once I get my ride running again (topic for a future thread).

Nathan
 
Instead of modifying the piston could you not cut out a shim to fit between pad an piston. I had some years ago that were for stopping pads from squealing (on a car) they looked like a triangular shape an like your stepped piston would let one part of pad touch piston before other. So as they had arrows to much sure they were fitted correctly i guess they would give you the same servo effect.
 
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