TVS can Solihull can't??

Madnorton said:
Is the start of the rebadging?? or will it wear the BMW badge. Seems the TVS Motor arm and Solihull are worlds apart.

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

TVS Motor working on a 600-750 cc motorcycle to rival Royal Enfield? - Times of India

Bikes News: Unlike its rival Royal Enfield, which offers lifestyle centric motorcycles in the 350 cc to 650 cc range with single and parallel-twin cylinder engine
timesofindia.indiatimes.com timesofindia.indiatimes.com
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They have multiple projects in the works with BMW so this is one of them.
 
Just looking, how can this compare with Royal Enfield?? You know it's going to be more expensive and this is a plastic spaceship not a retro bike! Or did I miss a new Royal Enfield?
 
mean gene said:
Just looking, how can this compare with Royal Enfield?? You know it's going to be more expensive and this is a plastic spaceship not a retro bike! Or did I miss a new Royal Enfield?
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The comparison is only in engine size. Once you get out of 350cc and TVS doesn't have a product so they are filling that gap now. I think it will be a bigger version of the BMW not a cruiser enfield type.
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
The stronger TVS is, the better for Birmingham Norton. Don’t think we can conflate what TVS is doing in India under its own marque, to what they are funding in Solihull.
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Agree, but it would have made sense to use the design and project experience in India whilst Solihull got off the ground and then hand it over in a controlled manner. TVS has introduced 3 new models and another is on the way, this in the timescale that they or the Singapore company have owned Norton. As for investment, the reported £100m was not what it seems, the TVS latest financial report says £60m and that includes the purchase and a loan. The same report had the loss at £14m for the 12 month period, you have to ask how long that will continue., and they have even more staff now.
 
Madnorton said:
Agree, but it would have made sense to use the design and project experience in India whilst Solihull got off the ground and then hand it over in a controlled manner. TVS has introduced 3 new models and another is on the way, this in the timescale that they or the Singapore company have owned Norton. As for investment, the reported £100m was not what it seems, the TVS latest financial report says £60m and that includes the purchase and a loan. The same report had the loss at £14m for the 12 month period, you have to ask how long that will continue., and they have even more staff now.
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At the outset, the emphasis would have been on maintaining the British identity of Norton - smart move to leave TVS in the background IMO. Foreign money backing an essentially British manufacturer, building British bikes in the UK using a British workforce. That matters to a lot of people, and not just in the UK. Sure the components come from all over the world but show me a bike where that isn’t the case. Absolutely no problem putting a Union Jack on a Norton. That might not be the case if TVS were in the foreground.

TVS experience I guess is in small machine manufacture, albeit they are introducing larger capacity machines - a very different market to the UK though. Noting also that the legacy bikes were to be the first machines to be introduced, and rightly so. That said, I’m sure TVS experience and expertise that had relevance would have been accessed (or directed).

I think a bank sheet in the red is inevitable for a startup.
 
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Stephen_Spencer said:
At the outset, the emphasis would have been on maintaining the British identity of Norton - smart move to leave TVS in the background IMO. Foreign money backing an essentially British manufacturer, building British bikes in the UK using a British workforce. That matters to a lot of people, and not just in the UK. Sure the components come from all over the world but show me a bike where that isn’t the case. Absolutely no problem putting a Union Jack on a Norton. That might not be the case if TVS were in the foreground.

TVS experience I guess is in small machine manufacture, albeit they are introducing larger capacity machines - a very different market to the UK though. Noting also that the legacy bikes were to be the first machines to be introduced, and rightly so. That said, I’m sure TVS experience and expertise that had relevance would have been accessed (or directed).

I think a bank sheet in the red is inevitable for a startup.
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How much, how many and at what percent of the TVS 961 do you think is made in the UK?
When is the Union Jack flag or “made in England” not ok to label the bike?

Or is it more correct to say assembled in the UK Or assembled in the UK with global parts?

Triumph claims the Rocket 3 and their TFC bikes are made in the UK, but the owners build booklet I received when I bought my TFC says otherwise. All of the pictures in the book show only Asian workers.
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
I think a bank sheet in the red is inevitable for a startup.
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Very true.
This is why I thought SG going IoM racing was idiotic.
Get your business in order first ( ledger in black ), then find foolish sponsors to pay for your racing program.

Let's not go through the whole "made in the UK" thing again.
We know what companies do today with sourcing, this line of reasoning will never end happily for most of us.
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
At the outset, the emphasis would have been on maintaining the British identity of Norton - smart move to leave TVS in the background IMO. Foreign money backing an essentially British manufacturer, building British bikes in the UK using a British workforce. That matters to a lot of people, and not just in the UK. Sure the components come from all over the world but show me a bike where that isn’t the case. Absolutely no problem putting a Union Jack on a Norton. That might not be the case if TVS were in the foreground.

TVS experience I guess is in small machine manufacture, albeit they are introducing larger capacity machines - a very different market to the UK though. Noting also that the legacy bikes were to be the first machines to be introduced, and rightly so. That said, I’m sure TVS experience and expertise that had relevance would have been accessed (or directed).

I think a bank sheet in the red is inevitable for a startup.
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TVS makes thousands of motorcycles a day so they are a large-scale manufacture which is why everyone is surprised at the slowness of the 961 rollout. TVS is going to use Norton to introduce EV lines as indicated by their investor statements. The 961 and V4 are placeholders.
 
Maybe the 961 needed a little more of a rework than they first envisioned.
Mahindra was slow to come up with actual bikes, however they are here and getting lots of use. I haven't read a single story of " Tried to ride new bike home from dealer, ended up on Lorry" as we kept seeing with the 961.
The 650 Enfield also launched a bit late IIRC, however it seems to be quite a decent (reliable) machine.
Maybe TVS will, in the end, do as well as these other Indian manufacturing companies have.
 
Would you buy a Norton if it were made, assembled and sold in India?
Or are you buying because it says Norton on the tank and you don’t care where or who makes it?

Just asking.
 
Voodooo said:
Would you buy a Norton if it were made, assembled and sold in India?
Or are you buying because it says Norton on the tank and you don’t care where or who makes it?

Just asking.
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If it turns out to be a reliable bike then I wouldn't mind the built in India part.
I already have the Thruxton r built in Thailand, so built in the UK is not at all a prerequisite for me.
It would be the styling and the Norton name that first turns the head, then the price/performance/ reliability questions have to be answered.
Unfortunately Triumph ( Thruxton RS) still wins in the price/ performance area.
I score both bikes about equal on looks.
Some will prefer the Norton and that might be enough to give TVS the small market they need.

As far as Indian built bikes go, I'm quite interested in these Indian built Goldstars. With that proven Rotax 652 engine it's likely that the bikes will hold up well. It can safely make a bit more than 45 hp too.
There currently is an army of insane Brits testing these bikes daily on frozen roads.
Then there are some in the UK that are raging over the bikes because they aren't identical DBD34 copies. Some appear to mainly be upset that a bike with BSA on the tank is now being built in India.


Glen
 
Voodooo said:
How much, how many and at what percent of the TVS 961 do you think is made in the UK?
When is the Union Jack flag or “made in England” not ok to label the bike?

Or is it more correct to say assembled in the UK Or assembled in the UK with global parts?

Triumph claims the Rocket 3 and their TFC bikes are made in the UK, but the owners build booklet I received when I bought my TFC says otherwise. All of the pictures in the book show only Asian workers.
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You know my opinion V2D3, because I’ve given it in response to that question more than once. Similarly, I think your opinion on the subject and TVS/Norton in general is pretty clear.

We both know that Norton product fits within the legal definition of ’Made in the UK‘, should they wish to use it (and put the Union Jack on whatever they like) cos we’ve been around that buoy too - so the points you make could be viewed as a bit point-less!
 
worntorn said:
If it turns out to be a reliable bike then I wouldn't mind the built in India part.
I already have the Thruxton r built in Thailand, so built in the UK is not at all a prerequisite for me.
It would be the styling and the Norton name that first turns the head, then the price/performance/ reliability questions have to be answered.
Unfortunately Triumph ( Thruxton RS) still wins in the price/ performance area.
I score both bikes about equal on looks.
Some will prefer the Norton and that might be enough to give TVS the small market they need.
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I would obviously prefer that Norton would "build" in the UK, but like you it is the 961's styling cues that I'm interested in, and reliability. But if the very same 961 were built in India, well the Royal Enfield is built there and from folks I've spoken with, they are well made. And supported with parts that are easy to get.

Of course if it came from India, I would expect pricing more in line with a Royal Enfield.
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
You know my opinion V2D3, because I’ve given it in response to that question more than once. Similarly, I think your opinion on the subject and TVS/Norton in general is pretty clear.

We both know that Norton product fits within the legal definition of ’Made in the UK‘, should they wish to use it (and put the Union Jack on whatever they like) cos we’ve been around that buoy too - so the points you make could be viewed as a bit point-less!
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I have 3 British bikes with Union Jack flags on them, and none of them are built with made in England parts.
Engines made in China or Thailand, carbon and plastic made in China, wheels made in China, lights made in China, brakes made in Italy, suspension made in Sweden, Germany, USA or Thailand, sensors and EFI made in China.

How much is made in England?
The correct term is hand built in England. Just like the dash says.
They just forgot to say, made with global parts.

I’m ok with it.
But as others have said, you’re just paying for a name.
 
City Garage said:
TVS makes thousands of motorcycles a day so they are a large-scale manufacture which is why everyone is surprised at the slowness of the 961 rollout. TVS is going to use Norton to introduce EV lines as indicated by their investor statements. The 961 and V4 are placeholders.
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Not sure we can compare the output/productivity of a large scale, established, foreign manufacturer of high volume small capacity machines, with a new start-up in the UK.

Disappointing that it’s taken Norton so long to get up and running but probably not so surprising to those more ‘in the know’ than you or I. A lot of water gone under the bridge in the last few years to get to this point, by way of start-up and environment. And if ever a new business needed to take time to get it right before delivering bikes it is Norton, given its abortive more recent past.

Yep they’ve been clear about the EV’s, as it’s the direction all manufacturers will be heading in eventually. I think current and future ICE machines are way more than placeholders though. They will need to make a clear success of their conventional engined models or may not get to a juncture at which they can introduce an EV, IMO.
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
Not sure we can compare the output/productivity of a large scale, established, foreign manufacturer of high volume small capacity machines, with a new start-up in the UK.

Disappointing that it’s taken Norton so long to get up and running but probably not so surprising to those more ‘in the know’ than you or I. A lot of water gone under the bridge in the last few years to get to this point, by way of start-up and environment. And if ever a new business needed to take time to get it right before delivering bikes it is Norton, given its abortive more recent past.

Yep they’ve been clear about the EV’s, as it’s the direction all manufacturers will be heading in eventually. I think current and future ICE machines are way more than placeholders though. They will need to make a clear success of their conventional engined models or may not get to a juncture at which they can introduce an EV, IMO.
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What you forgot to point out was that they took over a business that was already manufacturing a motorcycle and that with the TVS touch and the amount of money they poured in they should have been able to turn around the production line within at least a year. I don't care if it was 5 bikes a week they should have been able to do so given the resources available within TVS. TVS is a giant in manufacturing so making excuses for them is needless. They mass produce many products and with all the companies they own getting Norton back running should be child play to them.
 
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