Thinking of putting a 1200 Evo motor in a Slimline frame

Hi all, I have been thinking for sometime now of putting a 1200 Evo motor into my Slimline frame, there are many built with Iron head motors but haven't seen any with the light weight Evo motor, its just a throught at the moment, but I can't seem to get it out of my head, I have the frame, front and rear end altogether now but haven't started on the Norton motor yet, if I do I don't want to stuff up the orginal frame in anyway.
Any comment welcome, am I mad thinking of this as i have always been a Norton owner since I was 17 years old but in 91 I brought a new 1200 Sportster, first of the 5 speed and belt drive, it was good but not my cup of tea in handling.

Ashley

Pardon my ignorance Ash, but what's an Evo?

An alloy engined Sportster.

Peter Gardiner used to build those wideline Sportons, a slimline wouldn't be much different ?
http://www.ozebook.com/sporton/sporton.htm
His frames were custom built though, to get around the oil pump (??).

Dunno about that "But building the idea into a reality would take exceptional mechanical talents and ingenuity",
it more takes brute force and persistence... ?

Apparently, it'll fit.

I am willing to give it a go if I find a motor for this project, I have set up my workshop now with a milling machine and lathe, I have plenty of experance in making things fit with basic tools and have been a T/A to a maintenance fitter and turner at a TAFE college for 15 years in the 31 years I worked for TAFE QLD, I learned a lot it that time working there and have done so much work on my Norton using all the machines and tooling in that time and a good tradesman that knew what he was doing and being a young tradesman he was up to date with using moden machiney, we also had a good motorcycle workshop that had 2 teachers that had much experance with British motorcycles.

But using a Evo will take time, but I think it will be a good learning curve for me, but what ever I do I don't want to change the frame at all, engine mounts can change but not the frame, I want to set it up so that the orginal 650 motor can still be installed, its just something I have to do to get it out of my head, I did it when I first did my 850 Featherbed project in 1980 and it worked out well and is still my favorite bike to ride after 36 years of building it with only basic tools.

Ashley

Danno, your photo is of an Ironhead engine in a Wideline frame. The Evo engine has different dimensions. I had to cut a couple of brackets (footpeg and toolbox) off my Slimline frame to get the Ironhead engine in the correct place, it also looks like I will have to modify the bottom right frame rail to accommodate the oil pump. It is a tight fit particularly at the top where the rear cylinder protrudes through the top frame rails.

Ashman, I think the Evo engine is slightly taller and the cylinder heads wider than an ironhead and some frame modification will be required. I have a standard 1995 883 Sportster which I would happily measure the relevant dimensions of, but unfortunately I will not be going ack to te US for another 4 months.

Ashman, I think the Evo engine is slightly taller and the cylinder heads wider than an ironhead and some frame modification will be required. I have a standard 1995 883 Sportster which I would happily measure the relevant dimensions of, but unfortunately I will not be going ack to te US for another 4 months.[/quote]


Thanks for the offer, I have a few friends that have 1200 Sportsters and will be taking measurments off them before I do anything, if it works out to be to big or wide for the frame then that will put a stop to my idea or if it will fit in my Wideline frame then it could go it that frame and I put my 850 motor in my Slimline frame, I have my 850 motor set up that all I have to do is take the engine mount bolts out and head stay off (7 bolts and nuts and 2 allen head bolts on the head stay and I can lift the whole motor, gearbox, primary and engine mounts all out together in one hit, takes less than a 1/2 hour to do.
If that plan don't work I have a cousin up North Queensland his mate makes Wideline Featherbed frames (he puts BSA single motors in them), so could get one of them and do a big butcher job on the frame to make it fit without harming a good orginal Featherbed frame, all these ideas in my head, it won't stop till I give it a go, but till I get measurments its still just a idea,

Thanks for the imput, keep them coming.

Ashley

ashman said:

If that plan don't work I have a cousin up North Queensland his mate makes Wideline Featherbed frames (he puts BSA single motors in them), so could get one of them and do a big butcher job on the frame to make it fit without harming a good orginal Featherbed frame

Click to expand...

The trick then would be to modify the frame BEFORE its built, saves doing the butchery later. ?
There is that Norvin kicking around with a bigger than stock wideline, where the motor just bolts in,
no fit problems like they usually have. And its capped with an Interstate tank, also just bolts on.
When you gaze at it, it just looks like a wideline....

The trick then would be to modify the frame BEFORE its built, saves doing the butchery later. ?
There is that Norvin kicking around with a bigger than stock wideline, where the motor just bolts in,
no fit problems like they usually have. And its capped with an Interstate tank, also just bolts on.
When you gaze at it, it just looks like a wideline....[/quote]


My cousins mate I have met when I was up that way a few years ago, Mike has a small engineering workshop at Mareeba and has made a jig for his Wideline frames, if I go that way I will have all the measerments for the Evo motor and build one to fit the Evo motor, but like I say its only a dream at the moment, till I get the measurments and check everthing out it might go into the to hard basket, but who knows when things keep niggling away in my brain.

Ashley

ashman said:

The trick then would be to modify the frame BEFORE its built, saves doing the butchery later. ?
There is that Norvin kicking around with a bigger than stock wideline, where the motor just bolts in,
no fit problems like they usually have. And its capped with an Interstate tank, also just bolts on.
When you gaze at it, it just looks like a wideline....

Click to expand...

My cousins mate I have met when I was up that way a few years ago, Mike has a small engineering workshop at Mareeba and has made a jig for his Wideline frames, if I go that way I will have all the measerments for the Evo motor and build one to fit the Evo motor, but like I say its only a dream at the moment, till I get the measurments and check everthing out it might go into the to hard basket, but who knows when things keep niggling away in my brain.

Ashley[/quote]

Ashley, personally I think it is an excellent idea. The 1200 Evo is an excellent motor, and you could build something with all the benefits of it, without all the weight and 'Harley-ness' of the stock cycle.

If it were me, I'd be quite happy to get the angle grinder out on an old frame! But then again, if you've got a mate with the ability to wrap tubes around the motor then this would really lift the quality of the build into another league IMHO. The idea of keeping all important / handling related geometry but allowing the engine to sit, and be mounted, properly would really appeal to me.

I'm guessing there'd be no big debate about where to put the engine, ie weight forward, or engine sprocket rearwards, as it looks like it fills the frame space nicely!

The only question to answer I'd have is where to put the swinging arm spindle to maximise the gearbox-swing arm-wheel spindle alignment. But your frame making pal will probably advise there.

Hope you go for it matey... And keep us posted on the progress...!

Some inspiration for you Ashley...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Harton-CR1200 ... 33a2e2e4aa

Bootiful...!

Same seller also is offering a Commando Speciale.

Fast Eddie said:

Some inspiration for you Ashley...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Harton-CR1200 ... 33a2e2e4aa

Bootiful...!

Click to expand...

that one is very well, almost Elgi

jimbo said:

Fast Eddie said:

Some inspiration for you Ashley...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Harton-CR1200 ... 33a2e2e4aa

Bootiful...!

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

that one is very well, almost Elgi

[/quote

You have done it now, seeing this bike has just inspired me to start this project, be going down to take messurements this week and if it will work then just got to find a motor or a complete right off, I have a few mates that are in the trade.

Ashley

Sportster based motors ,the later ones are really underrated, unfairly, They relatively cheap, they have a massive aftermarket, you can get anything you want, and they are great street power engines , huge torque . Go with a 120in monster! (that wont be cheap), Or find a dual carb head evo setup, that would put everyone on the trailer.





get a set of Lawwill heads!

jimbo said:

Sportster based motors ,the later ones are really underrated, unfairly, They relatively cheap, they have a massive aftermarket, you can get anything you want, and they are great street power engines , huge torque . Go with a 120in monster! (that wont be cheap), Or find a dual carb head evo setup, that would put everyone on the trailer.

get a set of Lawwill heads!

Click to expand...

Thats all good, but you can only get away with so much on the roads these day, my 850 would blow a stock 1200 sportster any day if I wanted it too, so its got nothing to do with speed, more to do with handling than anything else and having a idea in your head is what intrest me and making it happen.

Ashley

A Goodman is a nice build too

Any Sportster motor can be "XRed" (twin rear-facing intakes, front facing exhausts) by using two front cylinders and heads and switching and re-timing the cams on the new rear cylinder, but you'll have to fab up your own intakes and exhausts and set up a pair of carbs. I would think this would help the rear cylinder last a bit longer (they always wear out first) since the hot exhaust would no longer be shrouded from frontal air blast by everything else.

One thing to be considered is vibration. Using the Isolastics, one could tame them. Bob Trigg was once asked about this and he said "They will work with any engine." The newer, rubber-mounted Sportsters have a much heavier frame (20 lbs) due to the motor no longer being solidly mounted as a stressed member of the chassis.

Danno said:

Any Sportster motor can be "XRed" (twin rear-facing intakes, front facing exhausts) by using two front cylinders and heads and switching and re-timing the cams on the new rear cylinder, but you'll have to fab up your own intakes and exhausts and set up a pair of carbs. I would think this would help the rear cylinder last a bit longer (they always wear out first) since the hot exhaust would no longer be shrouded from frontal air blast by everything else.

One thing to be considered is vibration. Using the Isolastics, one could tame them. Bob Trigg was once asked about this and he said "They will work with any engine." The newer, rubber-mounted Sportsters have a much heavier frame (20 lbs) due to the motor no longer being solidly mounted as a stressed member of the chassis.

Click to expand...

The exhaust would be on the wrong side, I tried to buy a set Lawwill heads, and I talked over the phone with the great man, but I didn't get it done . He was going help me but I waffled. Big ideas little money.They came bare. They were pretty much hand cast one offs , if someone did find a set now they would expensive for sure.

dug around and found this its about 5 years old

Ok, here is the scoop on the Evo XR engine parts from Mert Lawwill. I will list the parts and provide notes under each item to explain them as given to me by Mert. This is not new stuff and/or new news as he has been making this stuff for about two years now. But, here is for your enjoyment and/or information.

HEADS: $ 2,500.00 set of two

Note 1: Custom made by STD for Mert Lawwill. They come complete ready to run. The ports are CNC ported and hand finished. They are equipped with HD valve springs and set up for high lift cams.
Note 2: Because the exhaust port exits on the left side, it interferes with the return oil passage that is found on evo heads. The heads are drilled and tapped to use an external return oil line and the case needs to be drilled and tapped for the return line.
Note 3: The heads are made to work with stock flattop 1200 pistons.
Note 4: The heads are designed for 2004 up motors. They use 2004 up rocker boxes, pushrod tubes ect.
Note 5: Need to use adjustable push rods.

INTAKE MANIFOLDS: $ 220.00 set of two

Note 1: They are made to accept 38-40mm spigot mount carbs.
Note 2: Mert uses 40mm CV carbs on his conversions

SUPER TRAPP EXHAUST SYSTEM: $ 950.00 complete

Note 1: System comes complete with mounting kit and disk pack.

CAMS: Zippers $ 435.00 or Andrews 450.00

Note 1: Andrews cam is a N4 grind made to the XR configuration
Note 2: Couldn’t get data on Zippers, but is similar to N4 grind according to Mert.

THROTTLE CABLES (push/pull type): $ 80.00 a set of two (push/pull)

Note 1: Available for Mikuni’s or CV

AIR FILTERS: $ 86.00 set of two

AIR FILTER ADAPTERS: 64.00 set of two

VENT FITTINGS (head to air cleaner) $ 14.00 set of two

EXTERNAL OIL LINES: $ 14.00 set of two

THE BOTTOM LINE: According to Mert, the kit is designed to provide a reliable, pump gas friendly, smooth running street bike. It is designed around a stock compression 1200 motor. Dyno results are 85 RWHP. ( 1200 w/ 9.0 compression, Andrews cams, 40mm CV carbs, 2-1 header) While not earth shattering, it is about ballpark for a low compression, mild cammed motor.

ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT:
1. The STD heads are perfect candidates for Stage 2/Stage 3 porting and modifications.
2. High compression pistons w/ 15 or 30 degree domes.
3. High performance cams like the SE 575 or the Redshift 585
4. 1250 kit or even better a 88/90 inch kit.

So, there it is my friends. I myself, give the man lots of credit for attempting this. It amazes me that people like him (Stortz ect) (and people on this forum for that matter) can design/develop better looking stuff on a shoestring than the factory with it's big dollar R&D department. Some of you may critique the high prices of his parts. But, then again, here you have a guy buying parts a handful at a time. If he had the vast resources of the factory, the prices could easily be cut in half. We may not all agree with his idea but, it shows initiative and igenuity the factory seems to lack. Hmmmm, maybe the factory should hire these guys to do their design work.... No, that would be to hard, easier to stick chrome and paint jobs on existing bikes.

My opinion.


If you want more information you can contact Mert Lawwill at: mert@mertlawwill.com