The real cost of lockdowns….

Best I can tell, lockdowns didn't actually protect people. In my opinion, it was a pandemic, it was wise to protect yourself, there was a real chance of dying but staying cooped up may have been worse than going about your life while being careful.

All time COVID Per capita rates:
Washington DC, infect: .25, death: .002
In Fairfax County, Virginia, infect: .23, death: .001

In Washington, DC heavy lockdown

In Fairfax County, Virginia, there was no actual lockdown, but continual talk of staying 6 feet apart and wearing masks. That effectively locked down restaurants but they were allowed to operate. Grocery and hardware stores put arrows on the aisle floors to tell people which way to walk to enable 6 feet apart but in general those stores were not considered very dangerous since they have high ceilings and a lot of ventilation. Some stores limited the number of customers inside at once, but that wasn't the Govt. Virginia does not have pubs/bars (restaurants may have a "bar") so there was no issue there. In Northern Virginia, the traffic went from terrible to bad - no ghost town here. Some things that were done remain today and they are not bad. For instance, in the pharmacy I use, there are hanging plastic shields so if you cough or sneeze it does not get on the worker but there is a good-sized opening below and between each so they do not impede transactions. Also, the pharmacy staff still wears masks - they deal with sick people all the time so it's good for them and their customers regardless of COVID.

The funniest thing I saw: A guy riding a bike with double masks and the full cover helmet and gloves in the middle of summer.
 
texasSlick said:
Covid, wokeism, and climate change are issues for we the people to occupy our minds.

It keeps us from reflecting upon the failures of government.

Slick
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Honestly, I am of the opinion that these Govt. developed/mandated fallacies expose the manipulation and falsehoods that the govt./politicians use to embellish and promote themselves.


The real cost of lockdowns….
 
I had long been aware that such a pandemic could happen, but I did not really expect to experience it. If we ever had total war involving nuclear weapons, Covid would probably pale into insignificance, in comparison with the effects of radiation.
It is impossible to prove a negative - that due to certain actions, something did not happen. But during the Spanish Flu pandemic, it DID happen.
 
There has been 1.1 million deaths from covid in the USA. I believe our leadership was correct in being alarmed and felt the need to do something. There is no way to tell how many lives were saved by the vaccinations and how much it helped to stop the spread of covid. We were very lucky that covid was not highly lethal but it could have been. Nobody knew it's real potential so the "better safe than sorry" theme was used. I agree with that.
Unfortunately it was also used as a political tool to divide us even further. What worries me is when a much more virulent strain of covid comes along (or something else) there will be intense resistance in the population to any safety measures. That's a recipe for disaster.

#2 The lockdown gave the populace a break from the treadmill and gave them time to evaluate their situation. No longer were they using all their time working and driving to work just to make their bills and have nothing left over, only to repeat it month after month and year after year. And if they read a little bit they can see how much the 1% is making and refusing to pay a dime more than they have to to keep you coming back day after day. I've said it many times...if you want people to work then you have to make it worth their while. For example...a friend of mine is a fireman, makes good money, good insurance, able to put money into savings, has plenty of days off, and has good union representation so there's job security. It must be wonderful to be able to push back on your employer and defend yourself. So..given these conditions, he is very happy to go to work and very loyal to his job. He is a very good employee. There is a lesson to be learned here for employers though I'm not holding my breath. If you beat down your worker you won't get much out of him.
 
seattle##gs said:
There has been 1.1 million deaths from covid in the USA. I believe our leadership was correct in being alarmed and felt the need to do something. There is no way to tell how many lives were saved by the vaccinations and how much it helped to stop the spread of covid. We were very lucky that covid was not highly lethal but it could have been. Nobody knew it's real potential so the "better safe than sorry" theme was used. I agree with that.
Unfortunately it was also used as a political tool to divide us even further. What worries me is when a much more virulent strain of covid comes along (or something else) there will be intense resistance in the population to any safety measures. That's a recipe for disaster.

#2 The lockdown gave the populace a break from the treadmill and gave them time to evaluate their situation. No longer were they using all their time working and driving to work just to make their bills and have nothing left over, only to repeat it month after month and year after year. And if they read a little bit they can see how much the 1% is making and refusing to pay a dime more than they have to to keep you coming back day after day. I've said it many times...if you want people to work then you have to make it worth their while. For example...a friend of mine is a fireman, makes good money, good insurance, able to put money into savings, has plenty of days off, and has good union representation so there's job security. It must be wonderful to be able to push back on your employer and defend yourself. So..given these conditions, he is very happy to go to work and very loyal to his job. He is a very good employee. There is a lesson to be learned here for employers though I'm not holding my breath. If you beat down your worker you won't get much out of him.
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Unfortunately the vaccine did nothing to stop the spread
It doesn't stop you becoming infected
And it doesn't stop you passing it on
 
baz said:
Unfortunately the vaccine did nothing to stop the spread
It doesn't stop you becoming infected
And it doesn't stop you passing it on
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You sound awful authoritative on that! How do you back that up? If you mean it saved lives but didn't do those things, then OK but it would be nice to tell the whole story!

I have shingles right now. If you're unvaccinated for chicken pox and have never had it - come on over and find out the value of a vaccine :)
 
marshg246 said:
You sound awful authoritative on that! How do you back that up? If you mean it saved lives but didn't do those things, then OK but it would be nice to tell the whole story!

I have shingles right now. If you're unvaccinated for chicken pox and have never had it - come on over and find out the value of a vaccine :)
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I can only go by what I have seen on the news
The vaccine dose not stop you getting COVID and doesn't stop you passing it on
Therefore it doesn't stop the spread of COVID
 
seattle##gs said:
There has been 1.1 million deaths from covid in the USA. I believe our leadership was correct in being alarmed and felt the need to do something. There is no way to tell how many lives were saved by the vaccinations and how much it helped to stop the spread of covid. We were very lucky that covid was not highly lethal but it could have been. Nobody knew it's real potential so the "better safe than sorry" theme was used. I agree with that.
Unfortunately it was also used as a political tool to divide us even further. What worries me is when a much more virulent strain of covid comes along (or something else) there will be intense resistance in the population to any safety measures. That's a recipe for disaster.

#2 The lockdown gave the populace a break from the treadmill and gave them time to evaluate their situation. No longer were they using all their time working and driving to work just to make their bills and have nothing left over, only to repeat it month after month and year after year. And if they read a little bit they can see how much the 1% is making and refusing to pay a dime more than they have to to keep you coming back day after day. I've said it many times...if you want people to work then you have to make it worth their while. For example...a friend of mine is a fireman, makes good money, good insurance, able to put money into savings, has plenty of days off, and has good union representation so there's job security. It must be wonderful to be able to push back on your employer and defend yourself. So..given these conditions, he is very happy to go to work and very loyal to his job. He is a very good employee. There is a lesson to be learned here for employers though I'm not holding my breath. If you beat down your worker you won't get much out of him.
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Your point seems to be that it would have been foolish to do nothing?

I for one (and I assume the majority of folk with any sense) totally agree with that!

But ‘not doing nothing’ is a seperate discussion to defending the lock downs that we endured which, in my and many others opinions, went way too far and way too deep, they went way beyond any meaningful bennefit, but uncured as yet unknown costs.
 
It is impossible to prove a negative - that because of certain actions, bad things did not happen. A risk management approach returned a zero result - fewer people might have died ? I was not a political leader during the pandemic and 'things are neither good nor bad, except thinking makes them so'. It was not my call to do the lockdowns, however I have led in situations where people could lose their lives. - One death on your conscience is too many. I have a rellie who is a funeral director. He picked up a lot of bods during the pandemic and he is still driving. In Victoria, the Covid deaths statistics are not easily accessible. They are in a PDF file which can be analysed - but nobody states a number.
When the pandemic started , people in Melbourne could not drive the 200 Km to our town because of the lockdown. I am now vaccinated. I presume it works because I have not died. But there is no way of knowing if the vaccines really work.
 
baz said:
I can only go by what I have seen on the news
The vaccine dose not stop you getting COVID and doesn't stop you passing it on
Therefore it doesn't stop the spread of COVID
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Careful...if the news you saw it on was fox then it's highly suspect. They live for creating fake outrage and dividing the country.
 
baz said:
I can only go by what I have seen on the news
The vaccine dose not stop you getting COVID and doesn't stop you passing it on
Therefore it doesn't stop the spread of COVID
Click to expand...
The vaccine is well known on the news and everywhere else to nearly stop you from getting COVID and if you do get enough virus load to develope COVID, it greatly lessens the likelihood that you will die. It also greatly reduces the virus load you can get. Viruses are not "alive" and cannot "reproduce". They require host cells. They invade them and those cells reproduce increasing the virus load. The vaccines prevent a lot of that. The vaccine does not stop you from getting some of the virus, carrying the virus, and transmitting the virus - that's a separate subject. It's much like MERSA bacteria - almost everyone has it, almost no one has it bad unless they are in the hospital where it tends to run rampant.

The initial recommendations, wash hands, stay 6' apart, don't go out sick, etc. were likely all that would have been required to stop the spread. However, people didn't all do that - especially the invincible (teenagers and young adults).

I find no fault with governments who enacted sensible rules. Those that tried to completely lockdown did not accomplish their goals any better than the sensible ones as best I can tell.
 
baz said:
Sweden did nothing and came out ok
So what does this tell us
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The Swedish Government did nothing initially, the covid deaths shot up and eventually the Swedish people locked themselves down, but not before a lot of unnecessary death. During the first wave of the Pandemic the Covid death rate in Sweden was approximately ten times that of Norway.
Norway makes a good comparator as the life style and normal death rates in the two countries were very similar Pre Covid.
Norway and Sweden experienced their first covid deaths within 1 day of each other.
Norway started to lock down very quickly.
Sweden did not. Health officials there hoped that herd immunity would work and for that to work best, the herd needs to get infected.
Norway remained locked down until the vaccine uptake was substantial.

To date, Sweden's per capita death rate from Covid is roughly triple that of Norway.
So it seems the Swedish experiment failed.

Glen

www.businessinsider.com

Sweden stayed open while other countries locked down — with 5,800 dead, critics are questioning if the gamble went horribly wrong

Sweden chose not to lock down after the coronavirus pandemic hit, and suffered many more deaths than its neighbors Denmark and Norway.
www.businessinsider.com www.businessinsider.com
 
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worntorn said:
The Swedish Government did nothing initially, the covid deaths shot up and eventually the Swedish people locked themselves down, but not before a lot of unnecessary death. During the first wave of the Pandemic the Covid death rate in Sweden was approximately ten times that of Norway.
Norway makes a good comparator as the life style and normal death rates in the two countries were very similar Pre Covid.
Norway and Sweden experienced their first covid deaths within 1 day of each other.
Norway started to lock down very quickly.
Sweden did not. Health officials there hoped that herd immunity would work and for that to work best, the herd needs to get infected.
Norway remained locked down until the vaccine uptake was substantial.

To date, Sweden's per capita death rate from Covid is roughly triple that of Norway.
So it seems the Swedish experiment failed.

Glen

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I love how the overriding point of that article is that ‘critics’ are ‘questioning‘ !

Critics always question… that’s what they do. Note how it doesn’t say ‘scientists have proven‘ !

There are countless arguments / articles / reports to both contest and support the Swedish ‘experiment’.

Do you guys realise that the Swedish ‘experiment’ was not an experiment at all? The Swedish approach was the internationally recognised and agreed response. A response that had been agreed and refined over decades by virologists. However, as soon as a virus came along, all other countries panicked and ‘experimented’ !

But Sweden did not do nothing. Sweden took many measures, it just did not enforce long blanket lock downs.

It’s very interesting to see that this thread follows the general pattern of debate in other arenas. As soon as someone questions the length, depth, methodology of lock downs used, people start saying “so your saying we should have done nothing”?

No I’m not, not at all. But the lock downs in their entirety were disproportionate. Our government lost site of the purpose of the lock downs, they weren’t able to handle the fact that the virus was (unfortunately) here and that they couldn’t stop it.

We started out correctly here IMO, the first lock down was correct, the intent was to ‘flatten the curve’. The lock down was supposed to be a short term containment WHILST we learnt what to do, how to treat it, and put other measures in place. But we lost sight of reality and somehow thought that lockdowns were a panacea, and were without issues, etc. and both of these were very, very wrong.
 
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baz said:
I can only go by what I have seen on the news
The vaccine dose not stop you getting COVID and doesn't stop you passing it on
Therefore it doesn't stop the spread of COVID
Click to expand...
This isn’t a vaccine thread… but oh well…

The vaccine debate is another one that seems to jump to extremes quickly with one side being conspiracy theory anti vaxers and the other side thinking it’s a panacea.

Of course, the real debate is more nuanced and central.

I’ve argued before (in detail) that I believe the vaccines helped a lot. So I’m certainly no anti vaxer.

But it is also now beyond doubt that the vaccines do NOT prevent infection. They boost your defences and increase your chances of repelling it, but that is not a prevention. You’ll need a higher viral load to get infected vs no vaccine, and your recovery will most likely be shorter and easier. But you CAN and DO still get it!

And when you have covid, you pass it on to others, whether you’re vaccinated or not.

So Baz is right, the vaccine does not stop infection and does not stop transmission.

It helps reduce both, but that’s all.
 
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I’m about to test again today, I and my youngest daughter had covid over Christmas, wahoo ! She’s clear and I feel ok now too so hopefully I’m clear.

I only knew I had covid coz I tested as my elderly parents were visiting etc. Otherwise I wouldn’t have, I was convinced we both had simple colds as that’s all the symptoms were.

It’s my second time with covid (that I know of). The first time was quite shortly after being vaccinated and I was in bed for 4 days. This time was like a normal seasonal cold in reality, and I haven’t had a booster for ages.

So, as expected, it does seem clear that the virus is mutating into a much less worrisome thing. Lots of people have seasonal ‘bugs’ currently and it’s obvious that many of those actually have covid without knowing. So Covid has become a mild illness now, practically indistinguishable from other seasonal bugs, and has spread itself very well indeed. This is good, as it’s basically normalising now and our immunity is growing accordingly.

We’re gonna be coexisting with this thing forever now, so we need to get used to it !
 
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Fast Eddie said:
I’m about to test again today, I and my youngest daughter had covid over Christmas, wahoo ! She’s clear and I feel ok now too so hopefully I’m clear.

I only knew I had covid coz I tested as my elderly parents were visiting etc. Otherwise I wouldn’t have, I was convinced we both had simple colds as that’s all the symptoms were.

It’s my second time with covid (that I know of). The first time was quite shortly after being vaccinated and I was in bed for 4 days. This time was like a normal seasonal cold in reality, and I haven’t had a booster for ages.

So, as expected, it does seem clear that the virus is mutating into a much less worrisome thing. Lots of people have seasonal ‘bugs’ currently and it’s obvious that many of those actually have covid without knowing. So Covid has become a mild illness now, practically indistinguishable from other seasonal bugs, and has spread itself very well indeed. This is good, as it’s basically normalising now and our immunity is growing accordingly.

We’re gonna be coexisting with this thing forever now, so we need to get used to it !
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Sorry to hear you have it again
I've had it twice now
I was vaccinated at the time of the first lot but not the second
 
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