Stop damaging your motors with oil shut off valves

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Hi,
philosophically, the idea of putting any restriction between your engine and the oil that lubricates it is unsound.
To put a valve in that relies on a positive human action to enable oil to flow, borders on insane to my thinking.
the fact that you will remember to turn it on 99.9% of the time is little comfort for the 0.1% of the time when it is overlooked.
Excuse the didactic tone but I have spent a lifetime trusting my life and other’s to endless checklists and procedures. I have a Masters in this very field and made more than my share of stuff-ups in spite of all of the above.
I could write reams on J Reason’s Swiss Cheese analysis of the trajectory from an incident to accident but I will spare you. Suffice to say that if you say you have systems in place to prevent oil starvation, it sounds like ‘famous last words’ to me
regards
alan
 
Alan L said:
Suffice to say that if you say you have systems in place to prevent oil starvation, it sounds like ‘famous last words’ to me
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Me too!

The PO of my rider had a valve and a magnet he stuck on the tank that said OIL! He made it about 40 years without forgetting. I never forgot either but one night I had a dream of riding fast on the Washington DC beltway and the engine exploding sending me into a high side. Fortunately, I woke up before I hit the ground. I got out of bed and replaced that hose that night!

Ever since I've said that if I ever am about to crash, I plan to have a heart attack and die before I hit the ground - at 72 I don't need/want/and probably can't survive the pain of hitting the ground coming off a bike!

I did many years of electro-mechanical repair before I got into IT. Often, failures were not in the devices or circuits that did the work but rather in the devices or circuits that checked that the work was being done right or that alerted you have there was a problem. Interlocks not interlocking, lights not lighting when they should, lights lighting when they shouldn't, disabling switches that don't disable and so on. In fact, I was killed (electrocuted) and then revived one time due to trusting an interlock in a huge mainframe printer I was working on.

Even a switch that is open when the valve is off, and the ignition power goes through that switch can short out and let you start with the valve closed!
 
Happily dicing with (engine) death here - ES2 and 850 each have manual valves with elec cut out.
I had an oil tap without cutout on my now sold 16H, but sidevalves are a bit more forgiving.
Turning on the tap does become a habit, the cutout just gave me the confidence to have the time to develop that habit.
 
OK, you might forget to turn a valve on without some method to either remind you or an interlock of some sort. However, how often do people forget to turn the petrol on?
 
I know of 3 engines in the last 2 years that have destroyed themselves with valves fitted.
It takes less than 2 minutes to remove the oil collected in the sump - far quicker and cheaper than a new engine.
Then there is the really novel cure to wet slumping, actually ride or start it. I know some can't due to weather in the winter months, but even still you then prep the bike for the winter months.
 
Boys, boys, boys…

I can’t believe you guys are debating this AGAIN!

Some of you are in one camp, some are in the other.

As far as I know NO ONE has ever been persuaded to defect from one camp to the other as a result of forum debate.

You’ve all stated your cases MANY times.

Now you just have to agree to disagree.

Continued debate is the very definition of futility.
 
I defected. Possibly after I read the 3rd or 4th thread on this subject, when at my most paranoid phase of ownership :) . But, mine came fitted with one of the automatic ball valves and I didn't like the idea of the valve causing a restricted flow, even when open. I tried it with no valve and AN's sump filter with the drain screw, which makes it easy to check for sumping. No problem with sumping so far, standing up to 3 weeks.

I have an unused electric switch valve on the shelf. I don't plan to use it. Happy to send it to someone for postage cost.

Edit: slight off topic. Removing the anti-sumping ball valve and adding one of the Kawasaki reed/breathers into the breather hose, changed my oil return from frothy to smooth. I suspect the breather valve made the difference, but possibly the anti sumping ball valve wasn't helping.
 
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Mart UK said:
I defected. Possibly after I read the 3rd or 4th thread on this subject, when at my most paranoid phase of ownership :) . But, mine came fitted with one of the automatic ball valves and I didn't like the idea of the valve causing a restricted flow, even when open. I tried it with no valve and AN's sump filter with the drain screw, which makes it easy to check for sumping. No problem with sumping so far, standing up to 3 weeks.

I have an unused electric switch valve on the shelf. I don't plan to use it. Happy to send it to someone for postage cost.
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You’re not really a defector though, you were new and neutral. I guess having threads where both side state their case is indeed useful for folk new to the debate. But once the cases have been presented, further bickering is futile.
 
marshg246 said:
Me too!

The PO of my rider had a valve and a magnet he stuck on the tank that said OIL! He made it about 40 years without forgetting. I never forgot either but one night I had a dream of riding fast on the Washington DC beltway and the engine exploding sending me into a high side. Fortunately, I woke up before I hit the ground. I got out of bed and replaced that hose that night!

Ever since I've said that if I ever am about to crash, I plan to have a heart attack and die before I hit the ground - at 72 I don't need/want/and probably can't survive the pain of hitting the ground coming off a bike!

I did many years of electro-mechanical repair before I got into IT. Often, failures were not in the devices or circuits that did the work but rather in the devices or circuits that checked that the work was being done right or that alerted you have there was a problem. Interlocks not interlocking, lights not lighting when they should, lights lighting when they shouldn't, disabling switches that don't disable and so on. In fact, I was killed (electrocuted) and then revived one time due to trusting an interlock in a huge mainframe printer I was working on.

Even a switch that is open when the valve is off, and the ignition power goes through that switch can short out and let you start with the valve closed!
Click to expand...

Me too too!
I was an adviser on radiation stuff and had to explain to many (mainly young) engineers that I can’t regard an interlock as an engineered control- its a safety device, one step down the hierarchy.

Old engineers had seen accidents and didn’t argue so much.

An interlock works, until the day you need it!
 
Schwany said:
I bought parts from you Jim, and will continue to do so in the future. Does that make me a bad person? ;)

Crank cheeks are full of oil are they not? Doesn't it take more than a few seconds with the valve closed to blow up the bottom end?

I agree people should not use shut off valves if they cannot remember they are there. Hanging the ignition key on the valve handle would work, but a buzzer that goes off when the valve is closed and the ignition is turned On can work for a larger audience. Works for Jay Leno. I think I might start hanging my ignition key on mine. I'd really have to be brain dead to take the key off the valve and not open it. Then again going from where I am today to brain dead is a short trip.
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The crank might well be full of oil but it is not under pressure, & therefore the damage is going to happen to a plain bearing within a few seconds. The reason these valves were okay for Velocettes is because they have roller bearing big ends, these being tolerant to running with little oil & no pressure.
 
Fast Eddie said:
Continued debate is the very definition of futility.
Click to expand...

Stop damaging your motors with oil shut off valves
 
worntorn said:
Don't ever get on an airplane.
There are hundreds of switches that have to work properly to keep you and all of the other passengers alive.


Glen
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Yes, and MANY redundant checks/systems to ensure that and still there are failures, some catastrophic.
 
Matchless said:
The crank might well be full of oil but it is not under pressure, & therefore the damage is going to happen to a plain bearing within a few seconds.
Click to expand...
The oil will be subject to centrifugal forces as the crank spins so until the oil is used up then the bearings will be lubricated, once the oil is gone then the damage will start, hence why engines will last a few mins with no new oil depending on the size and shape of the oil galleries.
 
I think I have said this before? I like the idea that when that big flywheel comes around it smothers the cam with tons of oil on the first rotation. And with a good breather how often does the crank seal blow? Just my thoughts, I could be wrong. I think I was once.
 
I have to look for something to use as a key fob so I can hang my key on the manual ball valve handle while I continue to research small ball head switches and a buzzer. Also need to drill a hole in the key for the fob chain. Desperate times desperate measures. I got my Masters at Whatsamatta U.
 
Fast Eddie said:
Boys, boys, boys…

I can’t believe you guys are debating this AGAIN!

Some of you are in one camp, some are in the other.

As far as I know NO ONE has ever been persuaded to defect from one camp to the other as a result of forum debate.

You’ve all stated your cases MANY times.

Now you just have to agree to disagree.

Continued debate is the very definition of futility.
Click to expand...
This is true.

I always chuckle about how worked up the non-valvers get at the mention of fitting a valve.
We had one fellow who would get into coronary country over it all.
He' not around anymore, maybe it was an antisump thread that did him in.

It's as though the valve people were planning to sneak into their shed to fit a failing oil valve onto their prize machine, which will then be destroyed on the next ride.

Rest assured we will never do that.
The valves are kind of pricey and take some effort to fit.

So far the grand total of engines destroyed by valves with interlock on this site and the others I frequent is-

Zero.
 
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