Sludge Trap in Crankshaft

Hi guys, anyway of breaking down the sludge in the CS by using some sort of product with out pulling the bottom end apart?
This is for my low mileage '73 850, have put through a few changes of Penrite HPR 40 (25W70) and 2 x HF 153 filters after i took intial ownership, just to make sure I could flush the whole lube system to set my mind at ease after i saw the condition of the oil when I first got the bike.
Have been through everything(as you can see from my previous posts) as best I can, the only remaining two items are the engine and inner gearbox, g/box will be done the 2nd week of Jan to replace the layshaft bearing as recommended on this forum
Regards Mike

Brooking 850 said:

Hi guys, anyway of breaking down the sludge in the CS by using some sort of product with out pulling the bottom end apart?
This is for my low mileage '73 850, have put through a few changes of Penrite HPR 40 (25W70) and 2 x HF 153 filters after i took intial ownership, just to make sure I could flush the whole lube system to set my mind at ease after i saw the condition of the oil when I first got the bike.
Have been through everything(as you can see from my previous posts) as best I can, the only remaining two items are the engine and inner gearbox, g/box will be done the 2nd week of Jan to replace the layshaft bearing as recommended on this forum
Regards Mike

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Pull it apart and clean it or don't do anything. No solvent will clean it completely but it could loosen it to the point of disaster. Jim

Thanks , wasn't meaning to imply I was going to run the engine on anything other than good oil, just seeing if anyone had come up with a method of 'desludging' without total disassembly, although thanks fo your concern . Will do it when I have the need to pull it apart.
Regards Mike

Its the same stuff in bottom of oil tank, nano dust metal sediment with a bit of hydrocarbon glue. There is nothing that will dissolve the bulk of it w/o dissolving the crank some too. Its pretty much takes scrapping if not using industrial scale degerent steam pressure cleaner. I don't think the sludge can build up enough to block oil to rods as oil flow-fling likely keeps that open forever. If nothing outwardly wrong with crank I can't think of realistic reason to open it up. Even with oil filter the trap tends to fill back up to its innate level about 1/8" deep in about 10, 000 miles.

Hi Hobot, thanks for assurance, it some years since I owned a Norton, older garden gate framers and f'bedders in the past, and I seem to remember some Brit bikes had a hex cap in the crank into the sludge trap, but can't for the life of me remeber what bikes or models, or am I way off?
Had a look at your pics of bottom mounted links to match head steadies, did the vibes go up as Andover Norton indicate happens when you install their race head steady. Not totally oil related but we seem to have solved/answered my original question on sludge!!!
Regards Mike

Hi ho Mike, hobot aka Steve or Steven here. I've seen inside 5 cranks so far, 3 in decades unopened - un-oil filtered cranks plus two with long term oil filtered, one for years and the other only 7000 miles. I was rather let down by seeing the filtered cranks collecting sludge as much as un filtered, especial my re-new Peel-Combat that got too frequency oil and filter changes. So my small sampling and more study of what oil filters miss implies don't worry about it. Triumphs are the one with the hex plug that essentially gets destroyed removing it and apparently Triumphs have clog prone crank traps so likely the origin of a Brit Iron motto on other mixed lists.
Clean The Sludge Trap. Needs a motto because its a terror of a task I hear.

To me the whole world is divided into tamed and un-tammed isolastic Cdos and all the other corner cripples both new and old. I only know of two fully triangulated tamed Cdos, my Ms Peel by rod links and MaRaes's out all racer. He teases the solid Seelys about their vibration annoyance and sure can match em handling. Mine goes so totally silent smooth it feels like it disappears out from under but for the hand of God shoving me around. Uncannty Flabbergastingly Fabulous is best words I have for it. Handling is so much better than anything I've
experienced pressing past max to find out I've spend last 5+ yr buying a power plant to take more advantage of it.

I'm so used to exploring, inducing, lingering and avoiding plus settling down hinged handling I ain't bothered to put the head steady back on my un-tammed Trixie Combat as there is just no sense in pressing any un-trammed Cdo into loads that need a head steady to feel safer, but really ain't. With just new tires un-tammed Cdo can hold their own in sane but fast company. I've not read a single report of anyone complianing of hinged handling for a many years now so I know ain't anyone but me that's tired to take on sports bikes on un-tammed cdo to find out mid way into accelerating sweeper, 80-90 in 35 marked places to wish I'd never bought such a dangerous thing.

Most reports I'd read of 3rd isolastic that adds extra rubber area is they feel more vibes, a few report top isol is as smooth as just the two and handles better. If I feel vibes then its not a fully fettered Commando and dig in til its normal again.

Filters will prevent large particles of debris circulating around an oil system, but will allow all the very small particles that do most damage to circulate unhindered. Like it or not regular oil changes are the only way to prevent premature wear and keep the inside of a motor clean. Its silly to think using costly synthetic oils are going to help much either, as these will circulate particles round the motor in just the same way as much less costly products. Cleaning crank sludge traps means stripping and removing the sludge (which sometimes needs to be drilled out), very careful cleaning, then proper reassembly............there is no other way to do the job, and trying any other way may well result in a destroyed motor!

Had a customer ring me who had his crank reground and "cleaned" by a (very!) reputable German crankshaft firm. I begged him to still take the crank apart and look inside. Fortunately he did and found it nearly clogged up- in spite of their "wondercleaner" washing through it.
Consequence? Take it apart and clean the crank!

Hi guys one and all thenks for all the good info, figured by now that taking the crank apart is the only way forward, once I need to pull it apart.
Will keep up the frequent oil/filter changes in the meantime. I knew there bikes out there with sludge plugs, just couldnt remember which though.
Perhaps thats why I have always been Norton biased. Had a crank let go on a 650 AJS 1961 Model!!!
While passing a mate flat out in 3rd gear on my Domi 500, watched in horror (as he changed down to 3rd to catch me on his 500 Aerial Red Hunter ) his crankcase open up from a wayward c/rod and catch fire.!!!
Thanks Steve on the 3 x iso feed back, have spent many hours combing through all the threads and links, now just a matter of what I replace the headsteady with.
Have looked at all, some with springs some with out, some with no lateral movement , some nearly solid, so will compare all, and decide, as any thing has to be better that 1x real good original rubber and 1 x trashed original rubber on either side thats on mine at present.
My enginnering skills will allow me to make my own if I decide on either method
Regards Mike

Its the triumphs with a screw in 3/4 in. odd Dia. steel plug , to a tin tibe across .

Roumours are from back yard bodgers and butchers . The plug has a penny slot to
extract , special tool . Brother had one , Ex Air N.Z. , so not entirely ' special ' .
After FIRST drilling the centre punch ' Lock ' mark , with a 1/8 Dia. drill , the plug
comes straight out . Tubes ordinarilly half full of grey sludge / sediment .

7.000 750 crank had a light smear 3/4 wide of goey muck , Scrapeing off is only remedy .

A MAGNET in the sump plug and oil tank drain may collect the metallic particals , certainly
does on cars . Any engine with revolting oil is scoured out on the journals and bores , when
dissasemmbled .Black Deposits forming in the caseings being a giveaway . Stripped and cleaned at the dark brown stain
stage , the compent replacement count is minimal .
Stages being , from new , Clean . Yellow / Golden Deposits . Dark Brown deposits . Black Deposit . Carbon / gunk build up .

Friction proffing like STP or Moreys should radically reduce these . As can hard use if the oils good . Temperature removeing
moisture based contaminants .

ANYWAY . Crank Bolts , if NOT butchered can be reuseable . The same ' centre punch ' liability . Unworkable if overdone .

Ron Wood used oversize 3/8 in dia Crank Bolts , obviously not o.e.m.
Aircraft stuff of the RIGHT grade may be suitable .
I used Taitainium bolts cut & threaded to studs in the T100 race engine .
Wondering if V4 / V6 Capri rod bolts are going to match , something must .
Theres ARP etc etc Rod Bolts for Drag Engines , SOMEBODY had better twist their arm , Re Commando's . :mrgreen:

http://arp-bolts.com/

I still await a report of blocked Norton crank to its rod shells but wouldn't miss opportunity to look in if crank shaft was in hand. Only easy bolt upgrade for a 750 is the larger 850 stud kit plus drilling, as there is no off the shelf hi end bolt set replacements to be had, only custom ordered or fitted d/t the solid shaft part vs length of threaded ends. Realize the stock cast iron flywheel is fracture prone to spin long at redline levels no matter the strength of fasteners. Ya ain't full fettered a Cdo unless the crankshaft has been dealt with but can't rationalize opening it by what I've seen or read. OH yeak the soft metal lock tab is taboo to use as it crushes down and not needed. Loctite or stake the nuts.

In my rod link helms joint testing I find the top is worth about 10% improvement, the breast ~20% and rump rod the rest 70%.
That is I could still induce hinged handling ie: weave and wobble with just the top and breast links but not at all on just the rump rod along. I found my crude links had to be set in loose neutral slack or vibration transmitted. I found that moderns and untamed isolastic bikes goes nutzo when exceeding two tire counter steering traction but with the rump rod and its two more minor helpers invites leaving counter steering behind like 2nd stage of rocket dropping off so its 3rd 4th and 5th faster thrust stages can leave low earth orbit, circle the panets then blast beyond the sun's grip for out of this world warp speed cornering thrills that need forced breath control not to lose vision with the G's pulling blood out of head and squashing the brains mass against the vision centers at rear of skull case. Peel pulls on wrists not off the sides ie: forward thrust is what she delivers most of in turns.

When looking over the various linkage and steady designs keep in mind that too rigid is almost as bad as too flexy. I can't get no satisfaction from rigid moderns nor rubber baby buggy Cdo's. I made Peel's rear rump robust and so does MacRae's builder with beefy rear cradle swash plates. MacRoae reports as good of handling as the rigid Seelyes' but his bike also has robust swash plates at top and front, which backs up my findings, too rigid a chassis even if smooth feeling can't handle breaking free of counter steering dooldrums. Peel's top and front links are supported by long spring like studs on one end that will let frame twist to both take up tire conflicts and store that energy to release like a sling shot w/o rebound for spikes in acceleration when breaking front or rear free of counter steering restrictions. Short of breaking free at either end at will, Peel's compliant set up allows comfy two tire counter steering traction harder/faster/harsher than race bikes, like a shift faster through corners so you don't have to act like me to enjoy superior handling, just I no longer get much thrill merely out powering hi hp bikes in Peels mere get to work and back commuting rates. Out powering means leaping ahead into turns or out of them up to 90 mph in 2nd, after that Peel's Combat power ain't enough but to keep up to 130 or so but that's in opens not the tights and chicanes.

To ride close to limits on regular Cdo's and vtwin or inline sports bikes it takes real athletics but I am always refreshed and unstrained easy exceeding that on Ms Peel. I had to be feeling good to want to make it to tarmac on my regular Cdo and race prep-d and tired SV650. Not on Ms Peel so effortless and smooth I'd get on her even feeling hung over or fractured injured to get soothing relief and nice refreshed feeling by end of a ride to work and back. Then if a "feeling lucky good day to die" I'd leave phase two handling behind just to get high w/o drugs as each new phase of handling higher thrust and corner loads became easier and easier till just the wrist and eyeballs and breath holding required to ricochet any line and direction desired. No other bike in the world I've heard of gets easier the harsher its handled, which is partly what tempts me to do it as its like breaking through storm system to rocket over it in clam clear air on flying carpet w/o no annoying fringe flapping but all the forces straight back into seat down out the rear tire patch - not sideways toss offs or hanging off shit needed.

The two closest motor sports sense that Peel flashes me into is hi powered single water ski and acrobatic crop dusting helicopter flights - but of course w/o all or any motor or annoying road and wind buffet sense, pahsaw. The last two are the main benefits I get with the front and top links, not extra safety in handling just extra comfort that others take as more secure handling but don't really know because they ain't pressed their rig past points of no return out of counter steering, and wisely so because I will never ever do that again either on un tammed or too tammed motorcycles. BTW the lucky part above ain't any worry at all about losing control, just flying over and around blinds in public places. Can't wait to really let Ms Peel's hair out on a track day w/o deer or wild flying oncoming traffic. So as much as I brag and rant on Ms Peel I've yet to find her corner limits as I have so badly so often on every thing else. Your call as far you want to believe me and take your own risks. Three links have driven me crazy yet I seek no cure just more hits.

The top steady spring takes up some mass on 850's to help lower sensed vibration at low rpms. I grind a 45' bevel on front doughnuts and stuff extra full meat doughnuts in the rear iso mount. I grind waist in top rubbers in my factory Combat for smoother flight in normal range of Cdo operation for sweeter isolation but not the full disappearing act Ms Peel did after 2000 rpm.

What do ya do when all the way over and any more power spins the rear and any more counter steer slips front out and bike is fighting back through bars to keep er down -turning -accelerating yet must turn 90' in 30 ft at 60 mph on wagon trail ancient lumpy broken pavement or hit bluff or edge rail?? I know, its what ya do to break free to shift up into some real fast fun flings.

hobot said:

I still await a report of blocked Norton crank to its rod shells but wouldn't miss opportunity to look in if crank shaft was in hand. Only easy bolt upgrade for a 750 is the larger 850 stud kit plus drilling, as there is no off the shelf hi end bolt set replacements to be had, only custom ordered or fitted d/t the solid shaft part vs length of threaded ends. Realize the stock cast iron flywheel is fracture prone to spin long at redline levels no matter the strength of fasteners. Ya ain't full fettered a Cdo unless the crankshaft has been dealt with but can't rationalize opening it by what I've seen or read. OH yeak the soft metal lock tab is taboo to use as it crushes down and not needed. Loctite or stake the nuts.

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When I looked in my crank one side had one of the oil feed holes to the big end blocked, I think it had been like that for quite some time but the bearings still had all of the white metal surface and the journals were fine. The bike had been rebuilt at 15k-20k miles and is at 60k now, it did have a couple of sets of rings in that time and it does have an oil filter, on idea on oil changes though, possibly a bit lax in that department.

When I looked in my crank one side had one of the oil feed holes to the big end blocked, I think it had been like that for quite some time but the bearings still had all of the white metal surface and the journals were fine. The bike had been rebuilt at 15k-20k miles and is at 60k now, it did have a couple of sets of rings in that time and it does have an oil filter, on idea on oil changes though, possibly a bit lax in that department.

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Ok you've 1st report of block rod feed I've read in 12 yr watching. Very interesting but relieving to read no ill effects found, Remarkable enough I'd be suspicious that the blockage didn't exist in action but collects while setting up, but don't know of course. There a lot of force to push oil out rod shells and the bottle neck in the feed is the journal oil wedge gap not the holes to it.

On rechecking fasteners on couple cranks I nipped up so hard torqued I broke jaw off end wrench jaw and strained socket drive I still found a few with some loss of full clamp force. Loctite red was used too. So don't know what's up with that little worry but so far not let go running. If I ever do it again may have
to freeze crank with studs installed then heat nuts to nip up for extra clamp retaining when hot.

hi Steve, thanks for the great in and outsight, needless to say I haven't found the edge as yet and haven't punted mine against any othe C'do since this current ownership., so don't have any thing to compare to except modern bikes.Have had f'beds in the past with tweaked mills, beach racing etc, if you remember on the f'bed frame the footrests were adjustable on a through rod, seem to remember having them a long way up to give clearance while road riding the twisties.
Thanks for the high end info on the links, will do the basic mods to start with, punt it against some C'do's end of Jan when at a rally, give it to a couple of long time C'do owners to give me some feed back , good and bad.
Will keep you posted.
Will certainly take advice on getting the crank bolts tight after I have had a look in side, what about an air impact socket??? For both do and undo
Saw the vid clip of yours up a gulch rock hanging, thought what the f$#@ is he up to , then remembered all the trials we put two Fastbacks through, (and other Britbikes)including trying to jump them, hi speed gravel roads as well.
Wore the paint off the tanks on all our bike trying to get the weight forward!!!!
In the meantime plenty of good oil and filters, often!!!
Regards Mike

Gosh Mike I'd be hard pressed not to freak out keeping up with your bunches antics on basically factory Cdo. I'm working back up Peel with links and big power but found out a regular Cdo is just too risky to press into modern sport bike game or gets badly upset at some point. The creek run was more a stupid mistake than on purpose entertainment. I'd run it a number of time on Peel but it wasn't as flood chewed up then and had low tire air and cleated tire too. I spent way more time looking and lifting and wondering how to get back out in one piece. Peel will be lifted and made for this so will dive back in again with crash bars on her. The links were a big help in off road play on this scale, impressively so - which helped of fool me to try Trixie where she don't fit. Let us know your joy and success soon as ya can.