Short RoadHolder Forks Query

Acebars

Joined
Aug 12, 2013
Messages
55
Hi I'm new here, I'm looking at N15CS roadholder forks, they have the gaiters and an internal spring, does anyone have any idea whether or not it's possible to add a fork shroud/slider instead of the gaiter? Such as on the Roadholders with external springs? Also which are considered better performers the internal or external springs? Or can both be mounted / internals swapped around. Would be appreciated thanks.

The N15CS roadholders

Short RoadHolder Forks Query


The desired look:

Short RoadHolder Forks Query


It's my understanding that the shroud is stuck to the triple tree like so:

Short RoadHolder Forks Query
 
Your N15CS forks are not short roadholders, they are the extra long type of long roadholders. 25.x inches.
They all had internal springs.
As did all the featherbed-fitted short roadholders. 21.x inches
Anything with external springs has been modified or is not standard ?

The earliest versions of long roadholder forks, early 1950s, to fit the old ES2 and plunger frame dommies had external springs though.
23.x inches. And next to no damping either, very primitive damping arrangement inside.

The outer steel tubes were 'stuck' to the lower yoke of other models by 3 little screws, that screwed through the top of the tin tube (where it was folded over) and into the lower surface of the fork yoke. Access is from inside the tin tube - very tricky to fit. Since your forks are longer than anything else Nortons made, you would have to have especially longer tin top cover made up to suit - and the screws would be even more tricky to fit, since they are so far up inside that tin tube.
Have you removed the gaiters, and looked at the lower surface of the lower fork yoke, to see if its drilled for the 3 screws ?

Gaiters were stock, and easy to fit or service.
Why make it non-standard ?
 
Thanks Rohan, this is what I meant by external, it's missing the shrouds of course, I was under the incorrect presumption that all the shrouded ones looked like the one below internally.

Short RoadHolder Forks Query


I haven't bought them yet, I've found a pair of N15CS forks for a fairly good price and thought I could do the swap over.

Ideally I'd like to get a set of Roadholders with the sliders/shrouds, I think it's the Atlas ones I'm after, also would like to get the best performing one if possible so the early ones are out.
 
What is the overall lengths of those forks - and the centre-to-centre distance of the yokes ?
Can't explain the external springs - thats not stock ?
Or a mix of earlier fork stuff.
Or maybe there are fork versions I've not met ?

Atlas forks would be a full 4 inches shorter than N15CS ones ?
It'd be downhill all the time.
 
The external springs are stock:

Short RoadHolder Forks Query


They are the older earlier roadholders.

I don't have any dimensions, those N15CS forks I was looking at have sold so I wasn't fast enough. (I did not post a photo of them if there is confusion)

Why do you mention it'd be downhill all the time? There is only 1 1/2 inches between short and long roadholders according to the norton owners club. (21.843" Shortholder, 23.312" Long Road Holder)

I would be better off with the the long roadholders for my project AJS/Triumph/Norton, I'd just need to find out whether or not manufacturing or mounting the shrouds is possible.

It appears I am not the only one with this idea as can be seen in the image below, question now is can I take later/better long Road holders and retro fit shrouds to look like the bike below. There is frustratingly very little information online or anywhere on this subject. Failing this I will just have to find Atlas short Roadholders.

Short RoadHolder Forks Query


Also I'm pretty sure that these are long Road holders below, so they have been shrouded in the past.

Short RoadHolder Forks Query
 
You are well mixing up your fork types here ?

The diagram and the grey bike are the long roadholders of the 1950s.
They had steel shrouds, external springs - and 23" fork tubes.
Like my old early dommie twin and ES2.

Your bike (should have) 25" fork tubes.
Unlike anything you have shown there ?
Why not go with what was standard for your bike though ?
If you REALLy want something like what someone has done to that AJS, all you have to do is have a pair of extra long steel shrouds made up,
and screw them to the lower yoke using the 3 screws mounting.

The trouble with those shrouds like that is that the first time they have some really rough action, if they move slightly they hit each other, and either scrape against each other, or hit and jam and destroy each other. Thats why they are often removed... ?
 
Rohan said:
Why not go with what was standard for your bike though ?
Click to expand...

Because he wants shrouds ?
Nothing to do with Roadholders but after doing the (shrouded) forks on the Eldorado this week it was somewhat obvious that someone at Moto Guzzi owned a Norton. :lol:
 
Time Warp said:
Nothing to do with Roadholders but after doing the (shrouded) forks on the Eldorado this week it was somewhat obvious that someone at Moto Guzzi owned a Norton. :lol:
Click to expand...

BM introduced forks with bloated looking big shrouds in the 1930s, so maybe someone at Guzzi had a BM ?
And Norton were said to have bought one (BM) to copy the forks. (but not the internals, oddly).

A lot of modern cruisers likewise have adopted them.
Not to mention HD with the 'hydraglides' up front..

A lot of the customizers quote how many kg of bling can be removed....

PPS.
Perhaps its worth repeating that the N15CS has the EXTRA LONG version of long roadholders, like only they and the later series of P11's etc had.
You are going to have to make the shroud parts to do this, they are not to be found on any other bikes.
 
Rohan said:
You are well mixing up your fork types here ?

The diagram and the grey bike are the long roadholders of the 1950s.
They had steel shrouds, external springs - and 23" fork tubes.
Like my old early dommie twin and ES2.
Click to expand...

Rohan I'm not mixing anything up and without wanting to cause offense I don't think you have a great eye for spotting forks or what I've written. I did know already and mentioned a few times that yes the 50s Roadholders had external springs, the later type internal springs, I knew this before posting I simply wanted to illustrate that they did exist.

The grey bike clearly doesn't have the early type, as no early type was a roadholder and as long as that. This is confirmed by my having written to the owner of that bike today, they are later long Roadholders, the lower shrouds were manufactured stainless and the upper shrouds/sliders mounted to the fork by 3 bolts, with some other modification as well. So like you say extending the shrouds and fiddling with the 3 screws on the extended fork slider.

So I suppose it can be done, perhaps not bolt on but yes. I do love the look of Dommie short roadholder forks, but I'm afraid they are that short they may affect the handling of the bike I'm building, I'd prefer less of a rake angle you see.

PPS.
Perhaps its worth repeating that the N15CS has the EXTRA LONG version of long roadholders, like only they and the later series of P11's etc had.
You are going to have to make the shroud parts to do this, they are not to be found on any other bikes.
Click to expand...

Thanks for this info, I would have loved to have known it before, the forks are gone and this stuff is so rare I don't know when I'll see another set.
 
Acebars said:
The grey bike clearly doesn't have the early type, as no early type was a roadholder and as long as that. This is confirmed by my having written to the owner of that bike today, they are later long Roadholders,
Click to expand...

What do you mean by this "clearly" word ?

Early long roadholders, like on my 51 Dommie, are EXACTLY same length fork tubes as Commando fork tubes and later type long roadholders.
At a pinch, you can use Commando fork tubes. Or Commando forks even, same lengths...
Its only the internals springs and dampers that make them much different .

If this bike has P11 type LONG LONG roadholders, maybe ??
But I'd say they were stock length long roadholders for the era.
With stock length 6" shrouds.
 
Acebars said:
Thanks for this info, I would have loved to have known it before, the forks are gone and this stuff is so rare I don't know when I'll see another set.
Click to expand...

That set you showed were not the LONG long roadholders though ?

You can just buy fork tubes and sliders and springs, and build a set up.
That way, you get an all stock forks too, not something that a previous owner has cobbled up - without knowing what they were doing ?
And not worn out, like they often are....
 
What year is your N15CS , has that been mentioned ?
Some pics of early Altlas MX and N15CS bikes show forks with shrouds fitted, we note.
The rubber gaiters would keep dirt out of the fork seals, if it is intended to actually be used in the dirt like it was designed for ?

If you already have a set of forks, why not just make up the shrouds to suit ?
 
Hi Acebars,

PM me for the info you require. I have a friend in the UK who can help you get what you are looking for.


Skip Brolund
 
Mr Curzon, the UK authority on hybrids...

Has his book made it into print yet ?
 
Rohan said:
Time Warp said:
Nothing to do with Roadholders but after doing the (shrouded) forks on the Eldorado this week it was somewhat obvious that someone at Moto Guzzi owned a Norton. :lol:
Click to expand...

BM introduced forks with bloated looking big shrouds in the 1930s, so maybe someone at Guzzi had a BM ?
And Norton were said to have bought one (BM) to copy the forks. (but not the internals, oddly).
Click to expand...

Looks like this thread is sorted via PM's :lol:

Here is the Commando and 1973 Moto Guzzi Eldorado fork.
Both have a taper at the top triple clamp and tube length is within mm's of being the same.
The MG does not have a cartridge until the later 1970's,in this early fork the internals look very much like that line drawing up the page (below also).

Short RoadHolder Forks Query


Short RoadHolder Forks Query


Short RoadHolder Forks Query


Short RoadHolder Forks Query
 
The ' short ' roadholders take the external spings , no wucking furries .
It'd be a job of matching components . With the priority being on Top Condition stauchions & undamadged / unworn ( on bore ) sliders .

In the day there werte devotees of the AMC forks , for a smoother more prgressive action ( they said ) Such is Mr G Brown's ' Nero ' .

Thisd be a better option than throwing a sewt of Jap M-X / Super Motad forks on the sucker . But mention the word ' BRAKE ' and it
might no be so clear .

Horses for Courses . As in where its to be ridden . & How . Decent hard chrome staunchions would beat wearaway ones .
Were outfits makeing ' coustom ' stauchions once , But a mint low mileage ebay set would be less expensive .

You see a few with cracked pinch bolt and stay lugs on there , so be wary .
 
Rohan said:
What do you mean by this "clearly" word ?

Early long roadholders, like on my 51 Dommie, are EXACTLY same length fork tubes as Commando fork tubes and later type long roadholders.
At a pinch, you can use Commando fork tubes. Or Commando forks even, same lengths...
Its only the internals springs and dampers that make them much different .
Click to expand...

I think I owe you an apology with regard to that, you are right that the early Longholder looks exactly like the grey bike we are talking about those models went under the radar with my research into this subject so there were forks that looked exactly like that in the 50s, however when I first saw the bike I was convinced they were later road holder with manufactured shrouds, e-mailing the owner proved I was correct.

Ok so I know it can be done know are there any opinions on which is the best functioning fork of the Roadholder series? Would it be the Commando forks?

In the day there werte devotees of the AMC forks , for a smoother more prgressive action ( they said
Click to expand...

Well I'm not dead set on Roadholders I heard they were good, could you enlighten me further on the AMC forks? The bike I'm building is mostly AJS so that would be good also.
 
What are the actual forks you have in there already - they OK to use ?

I'm not familar with every version, but some N15CS and P11 and forks went to Norton Roadholder externals, but used the extra long fork tubes and internal damper system of the Matchless AMC type. Matchless were very proud of the smooth soft action of their Teledraulic forks, with quite a winning record in dirt bike (enduro) type events.
Unless you are planning on racing in desert events though, what it came with is likely to be quite acceptable - for road use ?
 
Matt Spencer said:
The ' short ' roadholders take the external spings , no wucking furries .
Click to expand...


Short roadholders (featherbed forks) may take external springs - but what do you do when the fork tubes are 4" longer than featherbed type. ?!
And where is the advantage in going to external springs - the choice of springs available may be rather limited somewhat too. ?
You sometimes see a light helper spring fitted outside on featherbed forks = suits heavier riders, or rough rides/roads ?!
 
Rohan said:
What are the actual forks you have in there already - they OK to use ?

I'm not familar with every version, but some N15CS and P11 and forks went to Norton Roadholder externals, but used the extra long fork tubes and internal damper system of the Matchless AMC type. Matchless were very proud of the smooth soft action of their Teledraulic forks, with quite a winning record in dirt bike (enduro) type events.
Unless you are planning on racing in desert events though, what it came with is likely to be quite acceptable - for road use ?
Click to expand...

It's only a project idea so far I'm gathering parts, I don't have a front end. I do have a spare pair of 1972 Yamaha XS650 34mm forks they are rubbish, clunkers by definition, it is often said that Japanese forks of the same era were poor performers so I'm hoping that late roadholders/commandos will be better.

I am looking for solid road use, not racing use or dirt use.

I'm a little confused about this early roadholder external spring chat, they are not the forks I'm interested in, also I understand that there are later short roadholder forks with internal springs, I'm pretty sure this is the case?
 
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