Road Racing a Norton Commando

Matt, clearly - you are carrying a lot of baggage, but how long is it since you owned/operated any motorbike, let alone a British one? 2-3 decades?

It don't matter how long off a bike to have riding on mind all the time. Shoot I've lost most my riding life last decade+ w/o a ride d/t bad fates to recover from. If I get too injured old to ride and sell off my bikes I think I'd still be active online just to keep the glow going til the end.

One thing about riding and racing in particular is the flash back of flashing confused sky vs ground with fork snapping out of hands as last clear image till the dust settle and brain blood returns. Two kinds of bikers but first kinds always depleting the second kind.

Agreed, but why deny yourself - when you are capable, but choose to wallow in wannabe bitterness rather than get organised & get on with it, I.M.O. -even a budget bike is more fun than a fantasy one you only ever wank over..

Showbike .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... m0o#t=633s

Rather than highjack the thread will post the Laurie Trident stuff on other bikes .



" Bit off topic, Matt? or just a bit off.
Show bikes make good racebikes? "

Er Right .
laurie-trident-t14882.html

Good Lord - Matt are you taking the meds? Or have you had a good talking to? Anyhow, kudos for being somewhat humanoid for a change...

Getting back to the original theme...Is there a Novice category that someone with an interest in vintage racing can run a Norton without major modifications/expense? I know GrandPaul runs a tidy 69' Bonneville that looks to be mostly stock. Is it more expensive to get a Norton track ready then say a Triumph, CB, or RD? I did two track days this year & loved it. Crashed the last time out on a low side, but was fine except for my ego and about $800 worth of plastic repairs on my 955i. They only thing keeping me from getting out there again (I really want to!!) is my better half. She's a bit nervous about it, but like the original poster alluded to, i don't want to be 80 or 90 years old & say 'I shoulda, woulda'. I think the next time out I'd like to find a much cheaper dedicated 'track' bike and then look for a vintage bike to pilot.
I just received these two bikes (candidates?) and at this point they can be made into anything I want....
The norton has newly rebuilt carbs on it, but both bikes had been stored for many years. I received them non running and got them up and running pretty quickly. They still require a go through and some work.

Hate to say it . BUt , the CB , oilchange & service , and wring its neck . :lol: as in thrash the daylights out of it . to test its mettle .
This is , redline the little Er ' thing ' repeatedly continuously . If it doesnt go B A N G its suitable .Dedicated Honda types Say ' they dont go bang ' .

THEN spend the loot on GOOD leathers & Helmet , etc . ( and practise abandoning ship = Just like you would for a Horse/ rodeo rideing .Just in case )

Theres likely lots of Honda 350 Hot Up sites .but as we're not millionaires , and its purely recreational , ' We ' confine the Expense to Chassis .
( This way we bugger up a el cheapo , rather than a Decent Norton . ) BRAKES , Shocks , a bit of braceing ? Tyres and were done .

probably more sensible than doing a T21 Triumph . BUT NOT a good late Daytona 500 or that 73 Tri/Bsa on ebay at the moment . :lol: :shock: 8)

Once youre confidant you can build a Commando to Aircraft standards , grab a 73 or 74 and have a word with the bank manager . Set up a workshop ,
and start training . 10 Km jogging 6 days a week , Actual work , like lumberjacking , is better than a Gymnasium. Many good early riders were Lorry drivers.Power Stearing & Air co make this useless as training now.

THOUGH a good standard Commando , even the 70 there, with crack tested internals , in near standard trim , will give a satisfactory account of itself
IF knowledgeably assembled . And respeted . particularly in regard to RPMs and developing cornering skills rather than wringing its neck like a Honda .

Back to a darn sight less expensive to trash , blow , throw down the track , the wee whizz bang .or at least ' cut youre teeth ' on it . Perhaps .

Though . its NOT the SAME THING. At all . Is It . :x

( if youve got the workshop , and the time, and are meticulous with the Norton .Stock , Valve springs , shocks(2 way damping ) & Ign (late assy )
and youre not a ham fisted clot , you should have no bother .)

For racing junk the 360....its a bit like a 350....but that 10cc puts it out of class, it would be cheaper to buy one ready prepped.....

It mught be cheaper to do that in any class, particularly with no previous experience of what to do that will really help....

best advice to you is to hang at the race meetings you might like to ride at and get to know some guys who look to be having fun! join the appropriate club and follow the web forum.....Check out what they are riding, and you might find something for sale.....

The good think about the Commando is...its a Commando....the bad thing is....its a Commando...you would need to to a fair bit of work just to be having fun....which means relaibly finishing races you start...I started on a Fastback, but when it was 5 years old, not 42....even back then I did a full engine and box rebuild, and the forks were fresh...and I ran a properly set up drum...not that easy to do these days....

No doubt you sould ride a completely standard bike around, as long as you have addressed the safety requirmemts...wire locking, properly working brakes and suspension, some tyre tread...no cracks....no leaks...compliant with noise requirements....

But assuming you canlean a bike....lets start with simple stuff....those foot pegs are going to drag on the deck pretty quickly....reasets....not really going to work without low bars, now that seat and tank may not be the best choice with that set up, so its not essential but you might choose another seat and tank....you will see how this goes in a minute....that left exhaust is going to drag on the deck...reroute it is a minimum...but a high level system might be best, especially with what follows.....and it might release a bit more of the standard power as long as you don't go wild...don't forget noise regs...

That front brake ain't gonna stop you after two laps, it can be relined, that might give you 4 laps before the lever is on the bar.....you need an eligible disc set up (check the local rules), standard Commando disc and master cylinder is not the best choice, but would work to start if you have one laying around...suitable pads are an issue, lockheed caliper is much better, alternative master cylinder, again much better....new front wheel with that disc, get an alloy rim, 18" for the race tyres most use, you can run a road tyre on 19" but you might run to their limits quite soon....done the front...better do the same at the back....now if you didn't change the exhaust you better had now...you might want to change the shocks, even new standards ones are likely to be an improvement, but good aftermarket ones not much more expensive, if any, and you better strip the forks...yes you can run em standard, certainly to start with, just make sure you get good advice on oils and levels, but fitting revised dampers is a good idea (later)

You should consider a better head steady...different choices around...but at the least check your iso set up and make sure its on the tight side, swinging arm pivot.....any play...fix it...wheel bearings...new...head bearings...check...renew...

Full engine strip and rebuilt, (standard spec will be fine to start...) and gearbox strip...standard ratios not the best, but you will get around....oh, dump the primary chain and get a belt drive...40mm without the alternator is stronger....but where are we going here?

get into this and you will want frame mods as described here recently and maybe......

Hey....go back to the start of this....you need to be pretty determined to go with this....getting out on something ready made is cheaper and quicker (as long it is not badly prepared and at the end of it useful life...lots of good bikes come up for sale due to owner change of direction of retirement....enjoy it....then come back and reconsider the Commando...

But in the end...do this to have fun...

Your SO should be less worried about you falling off than you being broke...... :roll:

You make me feel guilty. I rarely exercise or do much work. I put my bike together w ithout thinking about it. I never consciously lean my bike more than it needs to go to get around, and if anything is too low, I simply climb off a bit and keep the bike upright. My only advice for anyone starting to race is t o count your gear changes, leave racing lines open for others to pass you, and make haste slowly. After all the bits have fallen off your bike and been put back on tightened, and lock wired, the machine will be great. When you've become competent, you will be confident. Nothing beats experience, but it's probably better to learn on a good bike than a bad one.

acotrel said:

You make me feel guilty. I rarely exercise or do much work. I put my bike together w ithout thinking about it. I never consciously lean my bike more than it needs to go to get around, and if anything is too low, I simply climb off a bit and keep the bike upright. My only advice for anyone starting to race is t o count your gear changes, leave racing lines open for others to pass you, and make haste slowly. After all the bits have fallen off your bike and been put back on tightened, and lock wired, the machine will be great. When you've become competent, you will be confident. Nothing beats experience, but it's probably better to learn on a good bike than a bad one.

Click to expand...

I ran regular top 6 on that Fastback in Production races, first season of racing....I leant it till it stopped! I didn't move a lot!

Completely standard, all relevant bearings/bushes were new...forks freshly replaced...30mm carbs/ports, standard valves/springs (valve bounce at 7200) mods were rear sets and clip ons...3.60 front 4.10 rear 19" TT100s, chrome rims...tight isolastics..standard head steady...the Fastback tank and seat worked fine with the bars and rests....not so sure about roadsters....it can be done...

But 37 years later, generally there is no production class for a Norton! and that is not the only change....you are going to be in with full race bikes with a lot more horsepower, never mind, ride your own race....finishing is the first goal....

But the Left exhaust dragged on the deck, it was going to get holed if I didn't move it...the right folding rear set dragged on the floor...as did the tip of the gear lever!...standard rests dragged when I rode it on the road...

It needed better shocks, head steady, wheels, brakes, frame improvements, more horsepower.....I built another bike from scratch that sorted all of those issues!

Decided to re-open this. After heading down to NJMP and watching and his crew have a blast put some gas back in my tank. Now I have no where near the budget to come even close to a full out race bike, and I still want to have it streetable. I am a machinist, so I am able to produce almost everything I want for the bike minus gearing. I just stripped the bike, which was in need of a full rebuild anyways. Plan is to tear everything down, engine, gearbox etc. I cant afford a fancy 5 speed, so Ill be freshening up the stock box. Engine, plans are to go 920 I am a big guy so Ill need the extra power. Going belt drive, still deciding if I want to keep the alternator. Rearsets, frame strengthening, and any other such mods I can either make, or have one of the welders give me a hand. I would like to rebuild my own wheels, with something wider. Brakes, Ill be keeping the stock rear drum but if I can afford it next year a Norvil dual disc setup (again big guy, gotta slow me down) Ive given thoughts of buying a newer sorted out race bike, but then I would never have the money to rebuild the norton. Im only looking to start with one or 2 track weekends a season. Perhaps more if the time and the bike allow. With a wife, 2 year old, and all the expenses one faces when they are 30, this is the best I can do. So this is my current direction...talk me out of it?

Thanks for introducing yourself at NJMP, it was good chatting with you.

As for your aspirations and plans, a four speed is plenty adequate to start with, just make sure you have a good layshaft bearing.

If you will only be looking at track days then go the route you described but...................

If you have any future aspirations to race (ex AHRMA) then keep it (or sleeve it down) to a 750 cc. With a mild cam, bump the compression, valve seat and throat work and some intake and exhaust tuning you will have reliable power enough to get you into plenty of trouble. Remember that racing can be a slippery slope in your life so keep it in balance.

Lace up to 18" alloy shoulder less rims (ex. Excel); see AHRMA rule book for allowable rim widths. Simplest class is sportsman 750. The frame really does not need much bracing and in fact there are plates and gussets that can be removed (weight savings) with no ill effect. Although the Norvil dual disks are slick looking you would fare better by hunting down the forks, hub and disks from a Ducati DARMAH dual disk; you can machine up a triple clamp with appropriate (or improved) rake angle. I believe the DARMAH front end is by Marzzochi and provides some of the best period brakes available. Furthermore, you will get fairly progressive damping in the forks whereas with the Norvil you start with the bare bones Norton damping and spend maybe another $1,000 to get something comparable (Consentino cartridges) to what the DARMAH has to offer. Don't neglect the rear shocks - I don't know if there any inexpensive options here. Once together, start by getting your spring rates and sag sorted out.

Build the motor for reliability and look for weight savings throughout the bike. There's an article floating around about "the worlds straightest Norton" which you should have a look at since you have the bike torn down. Doug McCrae on this list races a Herb Becker prepared Commando and offered some good pictures of how Herb comes up with alternate improved isolastics - nothing expensive at all and well within your means as a machinist. I raced another Herb Becker Commando set up similarly and it was incredible. Consider a lighter fuel tank, oil tank and seat; maybe a swap out to the lighter tank and seat for track day. If you feel you are going to use the bike in anger then consider getting the cast iron flywheel replaced with a single piece steel flywheel - the cast iron is prone to exploding. Connecting rods should be plenty adequate.

I think the above suggestions will give you a neat street fighter that will give you lots of fun on a track day and is viable for AHRMA road racing. Sorry, can't talk you out of it. Sounds pretty sane to me.

The general hierarchy to a sport or race bike design and build is first you make it handle, then you make it stop and then you make it go. Naturally it is not sequential but more of a prioritized parallel development effort.

Ask questions and have fun.

Thanks for the advice! I remember you said your bike was sleeved down, so thats something I will consider more seriously then the 920. Great suspension input! Anything I can do to keep it simple (and cheap) is great. Any experienced advice I can get it money in the bank.

Before opting for belt drive look at the Merc duplex. Good weight saving over triplex.

Go to Merc dealer and look at a diesel cam chain (must be diesel) it is bullet proof and
will keep the "look" of the engine.

Andy

PS it is a bugger to break but worth it.

Forgat to add, just ask any Laverda owner you know.

Ludwig, If the yokes are machined so that the fork stanchions are not parallel to the steering head, or the axle is set forward at the bottom of the sliders , doesn't that effectively give a different rake ? My choice would be to measure the rake of the frame with a magnetic based protractor, and make the fork yokes with enough offset to give a sensible trail. What are the rakes of the various commando frames as standard ? If we don't know that, we don't have a starting point for development of the steering geometry. I keep the setup for about four different successful racing bikes in my head, and use them as benchmarks. The most important is the geometry of the TZ350 Yamaha. It has 18 inch wheels, 26 degrees of rake , and 1.4 inch forward offset. If you've ridden a Yamaha two stroke, you know how it handles - quick and relatively safe . My own bike is similar but has one degree more rake, and it oversteers under power in the direction in which it is laid over. If you get this wrong your bike might grab you by the throat.

Rake angle is the headstock, fork yolks are the amount that can be altered more or less as you described, Norton themselves used to supply fork yolks with different off sets for the sidcar boys at one time.

http://www.motorcycleframebuild.com/rake-and-trail.html

ludwig said:

Dances with Shrapnel said:

.. you can machine up a triple clamp with appropriate (or improved) rake angle. .

Click to expand...

For the umpteenth time : rake angle is in the frame , not the tripple tree ..

Click to expand...

For the benefit of the forum readers, you can machine up (or purchase) a triple clamp with appropriate (or improved) rake angle. As an example, Framecrafters offers custom triple clamps with eccentrics to adjust the effective rake angle by effectively causing the fork tubes to have a steeper (or shallower) angle relative to the frame headstock. The eccentrics give you options and adjustment.

acotrel said:

If the yokes are machined so that the fork stanchions are not parallel to the steering head, or the axle is set forward at the bottom of the sliders , doesn't that effectively give a different rake ?.

Click to expand...

No, that alters the trail.

Featherbeds were 26 degrees, 750 Commando were 27 degrees and 850 Commando were 28 degrees.
Disk brake Norton fork yokes actually have the fork tubes pointing back slightly, about 1.5 degrees.
Accounts for the slightly stubborn steering trait = not deviating from a line if even you swear at it.

Modern (road) bikes seem to range between 24 degrees and 32 degrees.
When was the last time you heard of any of them being unstable ??
32 degrees probably don't get raced a lot, however...

Vulin said:

talk me out of it?

Click to expand...

It is nice that you want go vintage racing, I would not talk you out of it but into it. And by vintage racing I mean real vintage racing. Since you are a family man with limited resources you are in luck, the closer you put your bike together as it came from the factory, the cheaper it will be for you, and also it will let you experience what it was actually like for racers in the 60s and early 70s to race a Commando. So it is a win-win situation.

What is ridiculous is saying that you want to go vintage or historic racing, then spend many thousands of dollars erasing the identity of your vintage motorcycle and also erasing the vintage and historic riding experience. The millionaires that dump tens of thousands into a motorcycle that has nothing to do with anything raced 40-60 years ago are doing a great disservice to vintage racing and those trying to get into the sport.


Study the history of Norton Commando racing, study what Norton put into the factory Yellow Peril production racers and shoot for something like that with maybe a few tricks to improve safety. Douglas MaCrae does have some excellent solutions to fix problems with the Commando isolastic system that improve it's longevity and functionality. As for the engine and gearbox I would take a look at the video where Dave Roper runs right with MaCrae's Commando while riding a 350cc single cylinder Harley, this will let you know that on anything but a long track with big straits that big-bucks engines are not needed. If Roper had a stock Commando engine in his Harley chassis he would have been able to do the same thing right?

Don't worry about being big or tall, that is far behind experience and reliability in where you finish a race, and it has nothing to do with how much fun you will have.

Keep it simple, and simple is doing and spending as little as possible.