Road Racing a Norton Commando

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One of the things which really puzzled me was when Kenny Roberts excelled at road racing, but allowed the rear end to slide around on the bitumen. We had an Australian rider Gary McCoy who was always sliding the rear end of his 125 GP bike. I think he crashed a lot. The biggest change to road racing we had in Australia was in the mid-70s whern the gumball tyres arrived. I still ride really concentrating on the rear contact patch, but I find the Bridgestone Battle Axe tyres never seem to move around. I think the young guys who road race these days are spoilt, and never really learn what it is like to have the most subtle change of mind, and crash because of it.
 
acotrel said:
I think the young guys who road race these days are spoilt, and never really learn what it is like to have the most subtle change of mind, and crash because of it.

I think the "young guys" have moved on to find and crash at the next limit, whatever that might be. I figure this is human nature.
 
Or old -schoolers, who are accustomed to having a developed understanding of the sophistications of their systems, & problem solve them [the traditional Brit bike & yes -2-stroke- tuner approach] are being replaced by strictly regulated ,run it as it comes out of the box delivered & sealed to prevent an edge being found.
As for riders, well, in Commando type events, there are keen owner -tuner- riders who may, or may not - have much in the way of riding skill, & those who can find a gung-ho kid to train in the ways a Commando [or similar] functions best compared to a 600/4.
The qualities of punchy torque delivery/compact dimensions/power density/Norton aura/style & roadholding that makes the Commando still an inviting road machine, together with the satisfaction in mastery of the arcane mysteries of the historical Brit mechanical puzzle/punji-traps is addictive, - like-wise for racing, with a visceral ride included, fast but not nth degree so, - so the surprise & pleasure derived from doing it successfully can be rewarding in a way that plugging in a new power-controller module on a droning 600/4 is not.
& it goes without saying, but here goes anyway, to get a pushrod lash-up modified roadbike around a track quicker than a pukka G.P. bike with the same logo on the tank does give a certain satisfaction too, while simultaneously beating the other Brits/H.D./Axis types with a -'Well, it is a Norton of course' ripost..
 
The geometry of road racers has evolved in several ways.

Typically, the old school bikes were weight biased toward the rear, more rear, less front.
They also had far less power to lay down through the rear contact patch.
Thus they could afford the luxury of rearward weight bias; the front end was reliable, solid, Gibralter.
Riders shifted weight to the front end as they went faster, to free up the rear to lay more power down and steer quicker.
With weight forward, then they could wash the front.
They had lighter but narrower wire wheels and tires . . . . great if you're stuck with low horsepower.
They had lots of trail and lazy head angles and often longer wheelbases.

The modern bikes shift weight to the front which allows the rear to lay down their far greater power.
The rider, when going fast, has to pay attention to both ends, all the time.
Wider cast/forged wheels allow a wider contact patch, also to lay down more power.
But, a wide wheel places more of the contact patch farther from the center line of the tire.
That demands more leverage for the rider, so wider wheels demand quicker steering.
So, they have less trail, steep head angles, and short wheelbases.
Wide wheels evolved together with technique, "hanging off" helps lever those wide wheels too - symbiosis.
Solid, as opposed to wire, wheels can handle side loads, riders stand up the bike, side load it and steer it like a car.
At the finish of a turn, the hang off keeps the weight low while they stand the chassis up and reverse counter steer.

The modern roadracer's typical crash is either a front end wash out or a high side initiated at the rear.
The get offs of yesteryear differed, typically a rear end wash out or a rear end wash out save that ended with a high side.
 
Depends what you mean about modern.. 'roadracer' - if racing mandated road derived/compromised machines, heavy /bulky/expensive/max power @ super high revs 4-strokes, that need electronic tractability/stability aids - or dedicated light, tunable race bikes, the ones now banned from G.P.s, [see the last lap of the `06 250 Turkish G.P.].
Mass matters..
 
$ 18.75 for a J P N ! . http://www.ebay.com/itm/Norton-JPN-John ... 0676280839

Road Racing a Norton Commando


Road Racing a Norton Commando


As low as $ 1.42 !

Road Racing a Norton Commando


Getting Closer to a RACE TRACK .

Road Racing a Norton Commando


Maybe its just a rallye & a poser . :?
 
Both have chin scoops sticking out. Whats going on with that feature? Don't see this on current crop of Cdo type racers, just oil trays.
 
Yes, thats a racer, who else wants to party but needs a bit of support and encouragement?
 
Form a Queue . :D ?

Not sure some appreciate what happens with a sound SS + spec. with throttle on stop . Definately not the thing for suberbia .Nevertheless

' Road Raceing ' as per heading is I think not refering to public roads . The old bystanders and citizens might not want one in the teeth .
Seen at least four cars spin out and visit the sceneary on one suberban corner in the wet . Usually the scenary is crowded with bathers etc .

Time & place for everything .
 
What happens Matt? Why not regale us with some wonderful tall tales from the days of yore when you bestrode colossus-like your mighty Fastback, afeared of no Honda...But do spare us the hypocritical pontifications about naughty bikies terrorising the streets & frightening helpless old people, when you still wish you had the means to do it.
 
'Road racing' is the old term for racing on the bitumen circuit. The old circuits used to be mainly closed off public roads in the old days. We have laws wich stop that in Australia these days, but back in the 1950s we could do that legally.
What happens on the IOM is 'road racing' in it's true sense .
I was interested in the comments about weight bias on the old bikes. I think you will find that a Manx Norton has 75% of its weight on the front wheel, most modern bikes have 50%. When I built my Seeley, getting the weight over the front wheel was a priority. Back when I raced my Triton, I made new engine plates to get the engine as far forward as possible to get it to handle. Even one inch makes a major difference . I see plenty of photos of Tritons these days with the motor in the wrong place. I know how they handle and feel when the front end is light, and you can't ride them hard like that.
 
The only modern bike I've ever ridden has been a Honda VFR400 which belonged to a lady friend of my wife. It felt completely neutral and very safe. I went out up one of our local roads near Benalla, Victoria with her boyfriend who had a gsxr1000 suzuki. The Honda went 180KPH, and I couldn't get it to go quicker. It went round the bends superbly, you were never going to drop it. Some time later I was talking to the kids at Winton Raceway, and one told me that the VFR400 is speed limited, so it didn't matter how hard I'd wrung its neck. I have an ambition of riding a Yamaha R1 before I cark it, just to see what they are like.
 
Matt, thanks for the link to the article a bout Kenny Cummings racing. I've grabbed the pictures from it to update my video on Seeley Commandos. I've a lso s ent the link to all my racing friends. It is very inspiring - especially the photos of the engine internals.

http://nycnorton.com/2010/01/01/racer-2010/
 
I'm listening close to your data points Alan-acotrel. I've run into this lack of front tire loading in turns, especially when in grip enough the power leaned can lift the front out of effective traction. If that occurs you better not have been depending on front to guide you around. Bikes with power enough to lighten load of front in trun definitely need some forward bias if they are to remain is sane counter steering handling. There is a compromise between low nose dragsters and hi front road racers, mainly for lean clearance issues but if one could tip front or rear up or down for the condtions then mabye 50/50 balance is way to go. I don't know for sure yet, not enough time experimenting before Peel over rev'd to loose tire spin power fast enough it really matters on becoming a unicycle. Extending swingarm seems to help some grip better accelerating but don't know if that shoots them in cornering feet.
 
That ideal swingarm/wheelbase ratio may be a bit of a bugger in respect of the long Commando engine/trans/iso mount set-up, - unless a parallelogram [or such -like] type swingarm can be devised to perhaps put the pivot point closer to the gearbox/output sprocket?
 
I've thought about extending Peel's swing arm for the sand dunes and hill climbs but otherwise I'm not chassis geometery educated though read up on it some what. I just flat lucked out to that Norton got pretty darn right and just needed some linkage help to stablize the weaving wobbles. Ken Augustine that did the World's Straightest Commando, cut the cradle shorter to get quicker turning that put his bikes out ahead of the crowd. After Peel out preformed me, by accelerating all the way through decreasing turns I lost fear to too fast too sharp but to smack something unseen too late. One of if not the most pleasing things about the isolastics once tammed is how easy to steer and how refreshing it is to have my way with Peel, I could be feeling ill and be ready to work from her commutes, like moon shine in lots of ways. All the other bikes I got frisky with I'd had to be feeling my oats as they really work ya to control holding down, picking up or even just sight seeing. I keep harping on the way Peel is linked as it allows a punk like me to brag to high heavens, can ya imagine how confident inspiring to novices to wonder what all the worry about crashing was about... Pre-Peel Combat was a worn out leaking mess with deep damage, so bought SV650, spiffed it up put on race only rubber and was indeed impressed till able to play the squid games short of breaking free. Then took Codes School, which I can't recommend too highly, on Ninja 900 and really had a blast so far over had to put foot on rear axle when pegs folded up, so my disdain for the ape hangers style, THEN NAILED IT for OMG another sense of control and more intense G forces. Made me sick and stupid feeling to own a dam clunker not worth shit all apart and crapped out. But pass point of no return on project zo made her a bagger InsterState cruiser - then found power combo then finished the 3rd link, then fell off the edge of the world and landing in cloud Nine, as it sunk in on what I had that made me feel so sorry for those on dangerous corner cripples that just can't take it like Peel does. It was the day after still in shock that her name came to me. Should I of kept it secret or let someone know what they might be missing out on before they are gone. Way more intense than sex, Multiple Hammer Head Road Orgasmic Climaxes one after another faster than ya can stand em. Ahhh got to wipe up again.
 
Bit off topic, Matt? or just a bit off.
Show bikes make good racebikes? Is that what you are purporting?
Or have you seen the light & are going to work towards an affordable performance bike...Yam 350?...Sure, why not...L.O.L.
 
The thing thith the wee pop pops , is two passengers and a bit of baggade , and hey start to wilt in respect to there endurance .

As for appeceiateing purity of form or engineering compatance , if we wanted youre opinion , wed ask for it . In general PEOPLE who are into old pommy crates
do so as they have a appreciation of timeleess design and construction , rather than the McDonalds products for the mindless masses .
 
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