Retorquing the cylinder head?
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Get the crooked bent 1/4w box end wrench as will be most used tool for head fasteners and a lot of the rest of the Cdo.
I bungee or zip tie or wire hold head up by the oil banjo's, then hold rockers down on the push rod setting via rubber bands over head then lower head till center bolt gets a bit then use it to settle head down against valve spring pressure evenly before I nip up the plug area bolts. Don't use synthetic fiber thread as it melts to globs but not just for fun but longer time sealing as long as staying ahead of the retorque till fully settled to only check every 1000 miles or so preventive maintenance tedium. Its silly to try to use T-wrench as factory didn't do that but on rod bolts and may put one off from nipping up as hard as it takes to settle and seal long term. Once leak started it almost impossible to re-nip seal w/o starting over the re-sealing again.
I bungee or zip tie or wire hold head up by the oil banjo's, then hold rockers down on the push rod setting via rubber bands over head then lower head till center bolt gets a bit then use it to settle head down against valve spring pressure evenly before I nip up the plug area bolts. Don't use synthetic fiber thread as it melts to globs but not just for fun but longer time sealing as long as staying ahead of the retorque till fully settled to only check every 1000 miles or so preventive maintenance tedium. Its silly to try to use T-wrench as factory didn't do that but on rod bolts and may put one off from nipping up as hard as it takes to settle and seal long term. Once leak started it almost impossible to re-nip seal w/o starting over the re-sealing again.
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Ani't no rule set in stone on how often to re-torque per how lucky you are in parts fits and how lucky or lazy ya feel. Its more dependent on how hot you get the top by how much throttle you grab and hang on to. Its always good idea to anneal the ever loving hotter than red hot into the orange hot zone as clamp force and low heat+ vibration work harden it. Better to let air cool slowly than water dunk as the thermal shock work hardens it some. Water dunk was race track or shop worker way to get back on in time.
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hobot said:
Heating copper more than a dull red will not soften it any further.
http://www.headgasket.com/preinstall.html
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Dear L.A.B. I don't post blunt statement unless I've lived em and can assure you the hotter ya get the copper the softer it remains on cooling, to point its risky to handle even thick copper stuff like 2" pipe fitting scale w/o mooshing out of shape like warm wax that can't even support its on weigh. So i learned my lesion the hard way with failed part I had to start with new on again, but was well worth it was the final mod in Peel's exhaust that drove me and contenders crazy. The only thing accurate with your statement is generally red hot is good enough. if it stays mostly only pure copper then annealling can be repeated until enough other elements get dissolved in to mater so new partial alloy can crack instead of give malleablly. Propane flame is just right for orange-ish hot. Try a bit of temp range tests your self and see. There is also likely some currents of corrosion-battery action helping to impregnate iron and Al atoms into the soft copper over time.
I've lost faith in the once superior FlameRing gasket d/t what seems available now.
I've lost faith in the once superior FlameRing gasket d/t what seems available now.
concours said:
It is my understanding that in general, copper head gaskets do not compress appreciably and therefore do not require a retorque. There is no harm in trying, however, but concours results seem to agree with the above.
Here is a bit of info from an automotive gasket supplier of copper head gaskets, same general theme on retorqueing.
http://www.headgasket.com/preinstall.html
On edit- I see this is the same link posted by LAB in reference to annealing.
Glen
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Well its sort of like reading the Bible, you can find passages to support what ever you like and same here, some say no need to anneal and other warn against over heating copper. Manufactures have many reasons for their advice not all of it based on actual practice or function. I can impress organe annealed copper with a finger nail but only indent red annealed. I agree nothing to bicker about and red hot or not should work as well. Some get away with once torque does it like Peel spoiled me on but Trixie is a bugger to stay sealed even after a few 1000 miles fooling me she was set. I doubt any one torque there stuff to the levels Wes and I do. Wes was the one who made me braver than prior 'over' doing torque so like the scripture readers there's various sects using the book their way. Again please try a anneal at dull red to bright orange and keep the results to your self but will know that effect better than right now. BTW this orange level also helped me get head banjo's sealed when no Al washers handy.
batrider
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Remember that when retorquing you loosen first then torque to proper value. If you don't do this a torque wrench WILL click without moving because static friction is greater than kinetic (moving) friction. Says Leo Goff anyway - not an old wife.
Russ
Russ
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hobot said:
You appear to be under the impression that I was merely "quoting from the scriptures" and not from my own experience when in fact I've probably been annealing gaskets for as long (or maybe longer) than you? :wink:
hobot said:
Really?
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my brother is a Metallurgist at a large corporation
I asked him about heating copper gaskets, he agrees with LAB that there is no further advantage gained by heating more than a dull red
he said anymore than that is both unnecessary and an "old wive's tale" from back before scientists fully understood the chemical properties of copper
Hortons Norton
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Russ I heard the same, But have also heard otherwise. But it does make a lot of sense, Any others that would like to add thoughts??? I did with both my bikes and have no problems so far, Maybe I should knock wood.
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I know what I found with oxy-acetylene to mate dissimulator thick copper with thin steel and also by just propane with good air supply, when copper gets past dull red into red-organe-ish temp it stays softer wax like once cooled. This does not contradict the engineers or those on list stating red heat is sufficient for head gaskets, I agree, but sticking to my story and await some report by those that might test hobot findings themselves. I can pick up a red annealed gasket by its edges carefully and not see it sag to matter but if orange annealed it will tend to fold in half if not supported under neath some too. Basic message is ya can't really over heat the copper if supported well and not actually melting it.
Me and Bonsai fools need better tutoring I guess...
Me and Bonsai fools need better tutoring I guess...
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Re: Retorquing the cylinder head?ur
Looks like Baghdad Bob from ministry of misinformation has struck again. Go with LAB advice- dull red and do not quench in water but let air cool. Quenching is taking you backwards- no surprise considering the source of that advice.
Retorque head after cool down of each heat cycle. Do not loosen first. Typicaly one ore two heat cycles with retorque should do it. You will reach a point where the fasteners will not torque any more and that is it.
Good luck with it and let us know how it goes.
Looks like Baghdad Bob from ministry of misinformation has struck again. Go with LAB advice- dull red and do not quench in water but let air cool. Quenching is taking you backwards- no surprise considering the source of that advice.
Retorque head after cool down of each heat cycle. Do not loosen first. Typicaly one ore two heat cycles with retorque should do it. You will reach a point where the fasteners will not torque any more and that is it.
Good luck with it and let us know how it goes.
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Re: Retorquing the cylinder head?ur
Looks like your both correct.
From Wikapedia:
In the cases of copper, steel, silver, and brass, this process is performed by substantially heating the material (generally until glowing) for a while and allowing it to cool. Unlike ferrous metals—which must be cooled slowly to anneal—copper, silver[1] and brass can be cooled slowly in air or quickly by quenching in water. In this fashion the metal is softened and prepared for further work such as shaping, stamping, or forming.
Dances with Shrapnel said:
Looks like your both correct.
From Wikapedia:
In the cases of copper, steel, silver, and brass, this process is performed by substantially heating the material (generally until glowing) for a while and allowing it to cool. Unlike ferrous metals—which must be cooled slowly to anneal—copper, silver[1] and brass can be cooled slowly in air or quickly by quenching in water. In this fashion the metal is softened and prepared for further work such as shaping, stamping, or forming.
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