Quality of replacement gears

Good on you Gary, taking the hit off the vendor and taking on experiment to make do with India cottage industry grade of finishing. Might want to cryo temper as cheap strength and wear improver for what remains after the high spots get knocked down. I've run pock marked, gouged, ridged cog after 1st gear bush break up and later by 3rd gear teeth shearing off d/t wrong gear on drag race clutch drop in haste of the chase. I just filed the high spots down and lived happy every after. If not for the risk to bearings and bushes I'd be sorely tempted to dump fine abrasive in lube to polish up automatically then flush out. Hope we don't get a chance to see em again for a long time of course.

All this means is the rejected parts will be sold on to someone who does'nt know better, with mayby dire results. not to mention the stuff is crap...plus it's odd's on these are not the worst :!: ...just for the record are they from the UK?

ggryder said:

john robert bould said:

Those gears are a disgrace, and who ever retails them should be Named. forget pussy footing! that standard is ZERO . I would be ringing the bells as Loud as i could :!:

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The supplier of the gears is embarrassed by the quality of the really bad one and will be replacing it. He acknowledges that the typical finish is not great, but that the gears have proven to provide good service. I've taken advice from someone who has made one-off gears for me in the past and I've decided to go ahead and use them. Some might think that stupid, but may be using a standard Commando box for racing is stupid anyway; so far I've had good luck using a standard box, but I'll be keeping a close eye on it from here on.

I'm not going to name the vendor, he's seems to be honest about the quality issue. Much of the stuff made available for racing (at a reasonable price) comes from very small outfits who obviously do not have the resources to test exhaustively or even at all, so I think the buyer must always accept an element of risk. I'm not prepared to ding this guy's reputation based on the look of the gears. I'll run them, check and take pictures at intervals and report back.

Cheers! ~ Gary

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ggryder said:

john robert bould said:

Those gears are a disgrace, and who ever retails them should be Named. forget pussy footing! that standard is ZERO . I would be ringing the bells as Loud as i could :!:

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The supplier of the gears is embarrassed by the quality of the really bad one and will be replacing it. He acknowledges that the typical finish is not great, but that the gears have proven to provide good service.
Cheers! ~ Gary

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Hello Forum.

Gary,
The supplier should be more than embarrased. they should be recalled. all of them are really bad. to those who have the rudimentary or specialised knowledge of the gear trade, the photos say it all. I would love to see the evidence of the durability of these gears. those gears as shown , it is impossible to have good service. the advice the supplier is giving you is bad advice, misleading at best, deceptive at worst..

these gears are rubbish and are not safe to put into service. NOT SAFE. the most likely outcome is tooth breakage from severe overloading caused by improper load sharing . . or if they have been hardened, may already have cracks induced by the surface finish. if they are not hard it just gets worse. just one of these reasons is compelling enough to not use the items.

You asked for advice mate, you got it in spades. PLEASE LISTEN TO THIS ADVICE.

the opinion of posters seems overwhelming. listen to their advice AND DO NOT USE THOSE GEARS. do some basic study of spur gears and you will change your mind about using them. study such things as tooth spacing accuracy, hardness, the involute profile especially, surface finish, contact ratio and pressure angle. this will give rudimentary knowledge and show why you risk dying if you use those gears. on all measures of good gear quality, these gears fail ALL tests. in the same class as cast gears.

And name the supplier. having raised this issue, you may have a duty of care to advise who supplies this dangerous stuff.

may you live long and prosper
Bradley

B.Rad said:

You asked for advice mate, you got it in spades. PLEASE LISTEN TO THIS ADVICE.

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I appreciate your concern Bradley and I'm not as "Gung-ho" as many racers, so I'll be a bit nervous the first time out on the track with them, but at least these gears have smaller craters in them than the ones I took out. From what I can gather there are a few members of this list running around on gears from this source and they have been for years. I assure you that without a magnifying glass in your hand they don't look bad.

This list is full of stories of broken bearings, shafts and cases, granted not too many broken gears; the "sensible" thing to do would be to buy a TTI gearbox and Maney Cases.........or an SV650.

Cheers! ~ Gary

you have not been around enough Norton gearbox's than. I have had numerous gear failures.any where from a gear losing one tooth to a catastrophic failure where almost nothing was salvageable

ggryder said:

not too many broken gears;

Cheers! ~ Gary

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This thread is disturbing. Gary asked people on this list for their advice. Which was provided, and the consensus was that these parts are inferior. To avoid being stuck with similar quality, a number of people have asked for the name of the vendor. Gary has declined to name the vendor, because apparently the worst gear will be replaced.

Where does this leave the rest of us? Does this vendor declare to anyone placing an order that he sells substandard products? I think not. Each of uis unlucky enough to order from this anonymous vendor will be screwed, and then have to throw ouselves on the mercy of the vendor to make it right. And keeping the name of the vendor quiet seems to be part of the deal to make it right. Something stinks here.

Stephen Hill

I would say that a "reasonable expectation" would be major metal flaking off during the wearing in phase and then a loose set of gears after that. And that is only if they are made from top quality steel and properly heat treated which is doubtful. Most of the transmissions today are made with "powdered metal" technology. Which is exactly what it sounds like. Powdered metal is mixed in a prescribed ration for toughness and hardness and then shoved into a mold under extremely high pressure and heat. The result is a gear that needs no machining and is about 15% weaker than one cut from billet. So, they size them 15% bigger and none of us know the difference except in the price!

Stephen Hill said:

Gary asked people on this list for their advice. Which was provided, and the consensus was that these parts are inferior.

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Stephen, I love this forum, the quality of the discussions here are higher than any others I have been involved with, but this is still an internet forum and I think the golden rule is that you take on board the advice and then you make up your own mind. There's no odor, I've been talking to the vendor over the past few days and I've had a guy who makes gears look at the pictures, I've taken various factors into account and basically I'm taking a chance on the gears. I'm hardly going to throw the vendor to the "wolves" when he is working with me. For my own piece of mind I'll inspect the gears may be a couple of times over the remaining racing season and post pictures here; then we'll all know what they're made of.

I don't feel ripped off, I'm pretty sure I could have got my money back; sometimes stuff isn't perfect but I still thank the vendors for making it available and providing us with choice.

Gary, I don't want to beat this to death, so here is my last comment on this: I think by not naming the source of these inferior parts, you put the rest of us at risk in future.
Stephen Hill

Stephen Hill said:

Gary, I don't want to beat this to death, so here is my last comment on this: I think by not naming the source of these inferior parts, you put the rest of us at risk in future.
Stephen Hill

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The only risk I'm presenting is that someone else buys these gears, doesn't like them and has to send them back.

If you buy non-standard parts and use them to rebuild your own gearbox, that risk is yours.

ggryder said:

Stephen Hill said:

Gary, I don't want to beat this to death, so here is my last comment on this: I think by not naming the source of these inferior parts, you put the rest of us at risk in future.
Stephen Hill

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The only risk I'm presenting is that someone else buys these gears, doesn't like them and has to send them back.

If you buy non-standard parts and use them to rebuild your own gearbox, that risk is yours.

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If we cannot find out who provides the lesser quality gears, can we not come up with a list of suppliers who, from the forums experience, supply a suitable road and or race gear set ?

Gary, my last word, you are weak! i personly could not rest thinking i was letting some low life who only wants to sell shit get away with this..and "he/she" will continue sell these RUBBISH to trusting buyers...not all purchacers will know these gears are totaly unfit for use ...and the fact you have got this stance..is just UNREAL.
Lastly the fact you consider using these ,well... tells me you are a FOOL..sorry mate ..i dont see the point when you can get good stuff.. :?:

ggryder said:

Stephen Hill said:

Gary, I don't want to beat this to death, so here is my last comment on this: I think by not naming the source of these inferior parts, you put the rest of us at risk in future.
Stephen Hill

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The only risk I'm presenting is that someone else buys these gears, doesn't like them and has to send them back.

If you buy non-standard parts and use them to rebuild your own gearbox, that risk is yours.

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Nortiboy said:

ggryder said:

Stephen Hill said:

Gary, I don't want to beat this to death, so here is my last comment on this: I think by not naming the source of these inferior parts, you put the rest of us at risk in future.
Stephen Hill

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The only risk I'm presenting is that someone else buys these gears, doesn't like them and has to send them back.

If you buy non-standard parts and use them to rebuild your own gearbox, that risk is yours.

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If we cannot find out who provides the lesser quality gears, can we not come up with a list of suppliers who, from the forums experience, supply a suitable road and or race gear set ?

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That sounds like a more productive idea than just badmouthing the OP, especially as I might be looking at Gbox work this year! Having a choice of recommended suppliers, and ofc the option of returning anything sub-standard would be my preferred option.

john robert bould said:

Gary, my last word, you are weak! i personly could not rest thinking i was letting some low life who only wants to sell shit get away with this..and "he/she" will continue sell these RUBBISH to trusting buyers...not all purchacers will know these gears are totaly unfit for use ...and the fact you have got this stance..is just UNREAL.
Lastly the fact you consider using these ,well... tells me you are a FOOL..sorry mate ..i dont see the point when you can get good stuff.. :?:

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John,

You have seen pictures of one or two teeth, you haven't been able to inspect the complete gear, you probably do not have a degree in metallurgy and you are prone to rant and call names for very little reason. I am not about to expose the vendor, who is a) making unusual ,if not unique, parts available and b) doing what he can to make things better, to you.

The vendor has sold a lot of these gears over the years and people on this list are using them, I'm not the only one who can use a magnifying glass.

Cheers! ~ Gary

Gary, yes the vender is making un-useable parts....er sorry unusual parts....Now as having a degree in metallurgy....i aint got a degree as a vet...but i know then i have trud in dog shite! But at the end of the day, this Forum is about sharing info etc...and thanks to your post/pictures we now know theres still rubbush being made out there. .....and people buying it :!:

ggryder said:

john robert bould said:

Gary, my last word, you are weak! i personly could not rest thinking i was letting some low life who only wants to sell shit get away with this..and "he/she" will continue sell these RUBBISH to trusting buyers...not all purchacers will know these gears are totaly unfit for use ...and the fact you have got this stance..is just UNREAL.
Lastly the fact you consider using these ,well... tells me you are a FOOL..sorry mate ..i dont see the point when you can get good stuff.. :?:

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John,

You have seen pictures of one or two teeth, you haven't been able to inspect the complete gear, you probably do not have a degree in metallurgy and you are prone to rant and call names for very little reason. I am not about to expose the vendor, who is a) making unusual ,if not unique, parts available and b) doing what he can to make things better, to you.

The vendor has sold a lot of these gears over the years and people on this list are using them, I'm not the only one who can use a magnifying glass.

Cheers! ~ Gary

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ludwig said:

john robert bould said:

.. But at the end of the day, this Forum is about sharing info etc...

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Yes .. but in this case only in one direction .
I hope people here remember Gary's attitude next time he asks for advice ..

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Ludwig, not long ago YOU were involved in a discussion which resulted in a locked thread. You did your best to blacken the name of a business man and list member. To my mind you and some others got carried away trying to make your point and did this forum absolutely no credit. I don't want to give you or any one else who is so inclined the opportunity to go that way again.

Thing is, rightly or wrongly, I am ok with these gears, if I have reason to change my mind I'll let you all know.

Cheers! ~ Gary

Time Warp said:

http://www.novaracing.co.uk/

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This guy is great too: -

http://www.mpe07.co.uk/

And just to make it clear, this guy: -

http://www.mpe07.co.uk/

DID NOT make the gears pictured at the start of this thread.

Time Warp, are you recommending Nova or pointing them out as a likely suspect ? Graham Dyson from Nova died a year or two back but the Nova gears that I've seen from him in the past were very well finished. He impressed me as a careful and skilled engineer (if sometimes a little slow on delivery).

I've handled RGM's close ratio clusters as well and they too had a much superior finish to these so I'd be surprised if they were the source.

The trouble with leaving this matter open is that it brings discredit and suspicion upon all the other suppliers until proven otherwise.

The only gear that I've ever broken was an Andover-bagged item back in the days when the spares were at Shenstone. The dealer who I knew and trusted and who only ever sold 'genuine' refunded me and then told me some months later that Shenstone had denied it was one of theirs. He was quite upset as he'd never purchased elsewhere. Most of that cluster had a pretty rough finish as well but there was almost no alternative at the time.