Quality of AN Spares.

Broken big-end bolt. Loose pushrod ends. Incomplete brazing on cam followers. Leaking rocker feed pipe. Pitting on 2nd gear pinion and incorrect grinding of dogs. Cracked crankcases. All these faults with brand new Andover Norton spares have been recognised/occured over the last 8 years/ 50,000 miles, although the longest any of these parts has lasted is 34,000 miles (crankcases).

ZFD said:

In some cases we have changed the method to manufacture a part to give us consistent quality. Made possible through machinery and processes that were either not available or financially not viable with the production methods being what they were forty years ago.

Joe/Andover Norton

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That quote was posted by ZFD 04/26/13. I think many problems do not come to light because of a very low average annual mileage of bikes. When a bike gets used regularly over thousand's of miles faulty parts become obvious. Some of these parts failed within the 12 month warranty period and some faults where recognised before the part got put in the engine. The big-end bolt and crankcases are/were obviously not fit for purpose and therefore not of merchantable quality but faults occurred out of the warranty period.

Has anyone else experienced similar quality of parts? I'd like to give ZFD the opportunity to state Andover Norton's customer service policy in relation to my recent problems with Andover Norton parts.

You bought directly from AN ??

Who built these motors ?
What exact torque were the big end bolts torqued to ?
You have a calibrated torque wrench ?

"Brazing" on cam followers ?
Leaking rocker feed pipe where ?

Its easy to sling mud, but we need to be precisely precise about each problem.
Its way too easy to make your own problems, and then....

P.S. 34,000 miles sounds a fair old way to go before a 'problem' shows up. ?
You can show us the evidence ??

How too do you ride ?
Nortons had a lot of these problems, even when they were brand new,
let alone 40+ years later....

I wasn't going to (I feel a witch hunt coming on?) but I will bite....
Only issue has been a broken tappet adjuster, friggin inconvenient, but I got away with it 50 miles from home at 40mph max. The part was not replaced but this was before Joe's buyout I believe. At the same time (Jan 2010) I bought a new pair of tappets from AN for the PW3 cam. These were sold end of last year in near perfect nick after (OK, only) 6000 miles. I also had a rod bolt go end 2002 supposedly AN but bought from Norvil and may have been their own. As yours it resulted in a large Norton 'Grin', bending the cam, lh frame rail, front ISO bolt, totalling the Maney barrels, pistons and rod.
On the crankcase front you've already indicated in another thread that you ride the bike hard, so it doesn't sound like you spare the revs? How often do you take it over 7k? With the heavy 24lb stock crank isn't it asking for trouble? You may not be racing but lots of very hard road miles can have the same effect. Wrongly or rightly I've always understood the cases (even Mk3) were a weak spot with high revs. Are the AN's not built to Mk3 spec? They might have been new but any stronger than originals?

Looking at this from a trader view I can part of the blame on owners....note I said only part.

I have a friend who tries to sell only quality Triumph parts but regualarly gets pestered for
a better price fortunately he tells them where to go. I have actually seen a guy moan about
the price of a beautifully made rack, go and buy a cheap one, then come back and try to buy
a fixing kit that was not included, but included with the good rack. There were several swear
words and he left kitless.

Even with chain I have been told,"pay £40 for a chain never". Yes I do sell a cheap chain but
I sell with "well I have some crap here and it will save you £20". The best one is "I am only selling
the bike".

It may not apply in this case but it does happen regularly at every show.
Iwis once produced a bullet proof chain but it was expensive. I sold quite a bit but in the end
iwis decided to delete because of production costs. 20 years later the chain is still running on
several race bikes and I am still asked for it, but not in sufficient quantities.

Andy

I have found that a good portion of current AN parts require some fiddling/adjusting to fit on my '73 commando. Any parts from an original Commando fit perfectly and interchange with no difficulty. So the concept that parts are "made better" today seems a bit of a stretch. I have had this occur with everything from threaded components to body parts to piston rings. In one case, when I called a very well known/highly respected supplier to complain about the installed excessive end gap on a set of new piston rings, he offered to go through his stock of rings to find a set that would gap per spec and send them to me at no charge. He said there was a considerable variation between ring sets of the same "size," enough where one set would gap within specs and another set of the same size would not on the same engine.

That being said, it's better to have the parts available as opposed to not, even if some massaging is necessary in some cases.

Keith,

The bike does get ridden hard but not all the time (urban speed limits, traffic etc) and typically only revved to approx. 6,000 rpm, sometimes 6,500 plus the bike is not putting out racing engine horsepower. I've stated before the original cases lasted for 115,000 miles before a genuine Andover Norton con-rod bolt broke, bought complete with new AN con-rods, so I'd expect newly manufactured Mk3 design replacements to last at least that. All I'm doing is highlighting the fact that there are problems with AN spares. The verbal response I got from Nick Hopkins (I think) when I telephoned reporting the bolt breakage in 2008 could not have been more patronising and as the part was out of the 12 month warranty I gave up. I still have the broken bolt. I would really like to hear Joe Seiferts policies on this, I assume he still reads this forum.



Rohan,

the whole point is I'm not talking about 40 year old parts. I bought from Mick Hemmings, except the pushrods (TMS) and cases (RGM), all the parts were AN. You don't appear to be aware that the followers have stellite pads brazed to the bodies - surprising for someone of your expertise, I could see areas where penetration was incomplete, these were returned and did not go in the engine. The rocker feed pipe leaked at every single joint within 200 hundred miles of fitting.
I built the engine using a Britool torque wrench which I've checked against my calibrated Teng Tools torque wrench. Bolts torqued to the manual figure of 25lbft. And yes, I have the broken bolt and cracked cases.



Mike,

having parts available, which in your experience don't fit and in mine and others experiences break, means those parts are completely useless.



Andy,

have a look at the prices AN are charging for parts - they are not cheap. My priority is quality not cost.

I had to buy 7 rod bolts in '08 to find 2 more that didn't have visible voids, like the pair that came from he factory 34 year before. I had to buy 8 crankshaft studs to find a sufficient lot that measured .374/.375 not the .371 that came from the factory. Oddly enough the factory parts lasted for 34 years and 10,500 miles, and may well have gone further if I weren't so anal.

I'm not sure that it is fair to judge a Norton's reliability by modern standards, I think if you want a motorcycle that will go 50,000+ miles without major issues you need to purchase something modern and liquid cooled. English motorcycles, IMHO, were never meant to be run for extended times at high speeds; English motorcycles were tailor made for English road conditions and for lower average annual mileage than we do now. Peter Egan once wrote that he was amazed that a certain Honda had valve adjustment intervals of over 25K miles, which he compared to English motorcycles that needed new top ends about every 10K miles.

I'm not saying that replacement parts don't need to be of higher quality and I'm sure that Joe will chime in at some point, and it seems clear to me that AN is committed to a program of continuous improvement, but I for one am quite happy to be able to get the parts and be able to judge whether or not to use them or to keep looking, yes its expensive and to some degree a tad frustrating, but the parts I purchase now are as good or better than the ones I was buying back in the early 70s. If the parts prices we pay now had kept pace with the global economic conditions very few of us would be riding.

Maybe a year ago purchased AN crank bolts and nuts from Hemmings. Found one of the bolts had
no threads. Another would not thread properly. Returned, replaced no problem, but how on earth did
that get past QC?
I have bought a goodly number of pieces from AN directly or through dealers and no they are not cheap. But
I also use an inflation calculator to get an idea of what costs are now v. then. Most of us are old(ish)
and remember what we made then and how long we saved to get a proper bike.
It is impossible to sell inexpensive but quality parts and stay in business. It is possible to sell crap
and retire in comfort.
AN is at least trying to set some standard of quality and availability. Appreciate that and hope that
they keep quality first and if that means more cost to us, so be it.

The old saying you get what you pay for or quality costs is this really true ?

Carefully Look at the AN product range clutch plates ( surflex ) / petrol taps ( BAP ) / Valves (G&S ) / dual seats ( P&P ) / etc

the same product also available without the Andover packing direct from your local trader at a reduced cost

Valid point. They provide or want to provide one stop shopping where they claim and you assume all
parts fit for purpose.
That you can buy the odd nut and washer for vastly reduced price, sure. But think of what the
money guys at work tell you about "full cost accounting". That trip to the hardware store now
costs as much as the UPS truck plus your time.
It is up to the consumer where he spends.

I bought a number of parts both direct from AN and through RGM and Mick Hemmings and most hae been fine but a kickstart shaft an pawl needed a little dressing as the pawl was tight in its slot (it was fine in old shaft) also a gear had small nick in one of the dogs from being milled it must have then been hardened an was packed etc. I told Mick Hemmings an the gear was exchanged With no problems.


Having said that I bought the belt kit light weight clutch from RGM an when I looked there was no groove machined in it for the circlip that holds the Diaphragm spring. The clutch basket had been hardened assembled with the inner and bearing and the plates stacked in an nobody had noticed. Roger was very apologetic an sent one by courier who also collected the faulty one.

It is the way we are dealt with when things go wrong that is important as it can make things better or worse and many of parts we buy are made by others even if they are sold by RGM or AN or whoever.

Onder said:

Maybe a year ago purchased AN crank bolts and nuts from Hemmings. Found one of the bolts had
no threads. Another would not thread properly. Returned, replaced no problem, but how on earth did
that get past QC?
I have bought a goodly number of pieces from AN directly or through dealers and no they are not cheap. But
I also use an inflation calculator to get an idea of what costs are now v. then. Most of us are old(ish)
and remember what we made then and how long we saved to get a proper bike.
It is impossible to sell inexpensive but quality parts and stay in business. It is possible to sell crap
and retire in comfort.
AN is at least trying to set some standard of quality and availability. Appreciate that and hope that
they keep quality first and if that means more cost to us, so be it.

Click to expand...

I'll gladly pay what it cost's to buy quality parts that fit and don't break after a few thousand miles of road use. They already have some standard of quality and I don't appreciate it because the parts are not of merchantable quality if you want to use the bike, they're absolutely fine for any bike sitting in a garage.

RoadScholar said:

I'm not sure that it is fair to judge a Norton's reliability by modern standards, I think if you want a motorcycle that will go 50,000+ miles without major issues you need to purchase something modern and liquid cooled. English motorcycles, IMHO, were never meant to be run for extended times at high speeds; English motorcycles were tailor made for English road conditions and for lower average annual mileage than we do now. Peter Egan once wrote that he was amazed that a certain Honda had valve adjustment intervals of over 25K miles, which he compared to English motorcycles that needed new top ends about every 10K miles.

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Depends what you call major issues. Top end rebuild at 50,000 miles due to parts wearing is fine, bottom end rebuild at 100,000 miles is also acceptable. The worst thing that will happen to a Norton road engine assuming it's correctly assembled with parts to correct specifications is it will vibrate which is an inherent part of the design - on a Commando this is not a problem and I can accept it. I don't expect a push rod engine valve train for example, to wear as well as an OHC engine due to design differences - I can accept this too but crucial parts breaking at 15,000 miles and 34,000 miles is totally unacceptable and happens only because the parts in question are not fit for purpose.
My bikes never broken down through overheating or being run for a long time - the rod bolt broke within 20 miles from home. If your Commando needs a new top end after 10,000 miles either change your mechanic, parts supplier, machine shop or all three. My Commando is ridden most of the time on English and Welsh country roads and will only be doing approx. 5,000 rpm to keep up with fast lane motorway traffic. Andover Norton are not a charity - they make money from people buying parts - no skin off their nose if they have repeat customers due to breaking parts. I'm fed up with the bullshit about how great they're parts are when I know for a fact they are not - 40 years down the road and overall the parts are worse than when my bike was built.

toppy said:

I bought a number of parts both direct from AN and through RGM and Mick Hemmings and most hae been fine but a kickstart shaft an pawl needed a little dressing as the pawl was tight in its slot (it was fine in old shaft) also a gear had small nick in one of the dogs from being milled it must have then been hardened an was packed etc. I told Mick Hemmings an the gear was exchanged With no problems.


Having said that I bought the belt kit light weight clutch from RGM an when I looked there was no groove machined in it for the circlip that holds the Diaphragm spring. The clutch basket had been hardened assembled with the inner and bearing and the plates stacked in an nobody had noticed. Roger was very apologetic an sent one by courier who also collected the faulty one.

It is the way we are dealt with when things go wrong that is important as it can make things better or worse and many of parts we buy are made by others even if they are sold by RGM or AN or whoever.

Click to expand...

Toppy,

how many miles have you done since fitting the parts? It's irrelevant who makes them - the contract is between the customer and seller and it's up to the seller to make sure they supply parts of merchantable quality. The most important thing is not being sold rubbish in the first place. You only have to read brittle-norton-sprocket-failiure-t19254.html to see a typical response regarding a customer complaint when a part fails - but that was obviously the way it was fitted.

ludwig said:

Did you check the bolt hole in the broken conrod for evidence of aluminium swarf trapped under the bolt head ? .
you'll need a magnifying glass .

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The state of the remains means it would be difficult to tell but I can see a feint spiral on the wasted part of the bolt which is exactly at the fracture. There is a crystalline structure to the CSA on this part of the break indicating a tensile force and the other part of the break looks more like a shearing force as the surface has a smeared appearance. I will get a camera and get these pics posted and of the cracked cases too. Just looked and the fracture surface patterns are the other way round.

A real racer and also a fake racer hobot both found evidence of slight surface fracture allowing corrosion to creep across one tiny metal grain interface after another, until about half way across, rest of its fresh fracture surface looked shiny like the whole surface of the other once good bolt, not darkened as bolt that failed 1st. I also lost a bike d/t cheap constructed flame-ring from AN in bag with green globe label but have not gotten over that long enough to use the 2nd one hanging on wall instead of re-annealing copper one a few times since with some weeps but no freaking blow outs away from home and appointments waiting. Don't know if stock upgraded yet or not so await reports here to reassure me.

Conrod bolts can fracture from other reasons,other than the bolt "just failing" piston or crank shells tightening up..bolt fails,,then piston contacts to loosen up again..Bolt gets blaimed!

As yet the gearbox has not been used as my bike is in bits an due to illness of family member I've not had chance to do much work on it.

I agree we should expect a quality part as that is why we are buying them from these companies and not cheaper parts of other suppliers.

Not many of us (me included though I wish I could) do anything close to the mileage you do and so many of us would have had parts in our machines for longer time if the failure of said part was mileage related. You therefore are much better placed to give the seller's information on the life of parts. The makers of the parts may not have the Resources or facilities to test parts for extended service life where as vehicle manufacturers ordering Thousands of parts can ask more of a supplier or perform more rigorous Testing.

I agree with your point of view an as I have had my crank reground an assembled by Mick Hemmings using new bolts etc in the believe that this is the correct approach in the hope of reliability I am therefore concerned about your bolt failure.

Al-otment said:

You don't appear to be aware that the followers have stellite pads brazed to the bodies - surprising for someone of your expertise, I could see areas where penetration was incomplete, these were returned and did not go in the engine..

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I've applied stellite directly to a steel part - not Norton cam followers - it is WELDED there directly and ground to suit.
If Norton cam followers have it 'brazed' there, that is a new one on me.
But I haven't inspected too many Commando cam followers either.
Don't recall any braze on any 850 followers though...

You didn't actually say what torque someone did the conrods bolts up to. ?
There are some wrong numbers quoted various places about Norton torques.... ??

Rohan said:

Al-otment said:

You don't appear to be aware that the followers have stellite pads brazed to the bodies - surprising for someone of your expertise, I could see areas where penetration was incomplete, these were returned and did not go in the engine..

Click to expand...

I've applied stellite directly to a steel part - not Norton cam followers - it is WELDED there directly and ground to suit.
If Norton cam followers have it 'brazed' there, that is a new one on me.
But I haven't inspected too many Commando cam followers either.
Don't recall any braze on any 850 followers though...

You didn't actually say what torque someone did the conrods bolts up to. ?
There are some wrong numbers quoted various places about Norton torques.... ??

Click to expand...

The process used to attach the stellite feet to the cast follower used to be referred to as 'friction welding', no there should be no bronze like material in there which typifies a 'brazed joint'....

I have heard of the stellite falling off of new followers recently......and I had it happen on '75 made items in about '77 on a race bike.....it would be nice to come up with a new design, JS has followed one option, BSA followers....but on the original BSA items there is still a stellite section involved.....

SRM recently tested a hard coating in place of stellite but weren't happy to go to production after initial tests....maybe after more development?

But now, buy new, inspect before assembly, what else?

A supplier who gets continual returns on unused parts has one route if he wants to remain profitable.....find an alternate supplier who delivers what is required and performs 100% inspection.....and price according to cost and profit....

SteveA said:

Rohan said:

Al-otment said:

You don't appear to be aware that the followers have stellite pads brazed to the bodies - surprising for someone of your expertise, I could see areas where penetration was incomplete, these were returned and did not go in the engine..

Click to expand...

I've applied stellite directly to a steel part - not Norton cam followers - it is WELDED there directly and ground to suit.
If Norton cam followers have it 'brazed' there, that is a new one on me.
But I haven't inspected too many Commando cam followers either.
Don't recall any braze on any 850 followers though...

You didn't actually say what torque someone did the conrods bolts up to. ?
There are some wrong numbers quoted various places about Norton torques.... ??

Click to expand...

The process used to attach the stellite feet to the cast follower used to be referred to as 'friction welding', no there should be no bronze like material in there which typifies a 'brazed joint'....

I have heard of the stellite falling off of new followers recently......and I had it happen on '75 made items in about '77 on a race bike.....it would be nice to come up with a new design, JS has followed one option, BSA followers....but on the original BSA items there is still a stellite section involved.....

SRM recently tested a hard coating in place of stellite but weren't happy to go to production after initial tests....maybe after more development?

But now, buy new, inspect before assembly, what else?

A supplier who gets continual returns on unused parts has one route if he wants to remain profitable.....find an alternate supplier who delivers what is required and performs 100% inspection.....and price according to cost and profit....

Click to expand...

And the company likely to have the greatest turn over of these parts will be AN and therefore source the best supplier!! i think.. So round and round we go